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Backing Crowd-Funded Watches 101: How not to get scammed

8K views 80 replies 38 participants last post by  Machine Head 
#1 · (Edited)
Disclaimers:
  1. This thread isn't promotional in any way, it is meant to be informational.
  2. I'll be primarily discussing Kickstarter and Indiegogo, but the advice applies to any other crowdfunding platforms.
  3. Your mileage may vary, use your best judgment.

Some threads recently have me thinking it's high time we (WUS members, watch buyers, lovers of micro-brands, project backers, project creators - basically, all of us) acknowledged, and then dealt with, the gorilla in the room - Crowd-funded watch projects do not always work out as planned, and before you back one, you should arm yourself with the best information and insights available.

As I was thinking about this, I originally meant for it to be a set of do's and don'ts you could use to avoid any chance of being scammed, and ideally, not even be disappointed. But then I realized, ultimately backing a project is not too dissimilar from any other form of internet-based commerce - the entire system relies heavily on a large degree of trust between all the actors, most of whom operate in good faith, but unfortunately there isn't any 100% fool-proof way to stop scammers or charlatans from plying their trade. So what follows is really just meant to be a set of "best practices" you can use to minimize your risk exposure.

Lesson 1 - Who's the project creator?

Behind every project is a person or people. Look here:

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Product Fashion accessory


There's a picture of Suj, right next to his watch. Good lookin' guy, inne?

Here's John "the Cobra" Lee:

Product Font Advertising Technology Brand


Here's a not horrible pic of me:

Watch Product Material property Watch accessory Fashion accessory


What's wrong with the picture below?

Analog watch Font Auto part Watch Diagram


Uhmmm...that's not a person, that's a watch. And that's not a name of a person, that's a name of a watch brand. So...your spider-sense ought to be tingling a little bit.

To be fair, just because someone posts a pic of "himself", that by itself doesn't mean it isn't still a scam. Here's an example:

Product Watch Font Technology Fashion accessory


That's "Chris McDermott" (apparent real name Peter C McDermott). But that definitely isn't his watch or strap. Whoever was behind this project photo-shopped a pic of a watch onto stock imagery from a strap supplier - form function form. As soon as the project ended, "Chris" took the money and split.

(This story actually has a hero for the ripped-off project backers. See here - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/fiel...-form-function-form-those-scammed-994239.html)

Let's look closer...check out Suj's bio, and the links within it...

Text Font


Read it. It makes sense. It sounds like a real person, who's into watches. I can almost here his cute little Aussie accent. John's bio, my bio, every bio I've read from legitimate project creators - there's a STORY there. A story told by a PERSON, who has a NARRATIVE.

What's Montrex got to say for themselves?

Watch Text Font Watch accessory Fashion accessory


What the hell is all that? It reads like the syllabus from the TZ Watchmaker's course - "Day three, hydraulic pressing". Call me when you teach the atomic sit-up. I want to watch.

Now, you can't use the search function on Kickstarter to find these anymore, but there were several watch projects on Kickstarter at the same time, with eerily similar watches and/or bios...

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Brand Fashion accessory


Kinda sorta has the same vibe as that Montrex watch doesn't it? And they're both based in Arvada, Colorado (population, at least 2, apparently). Both with a pic of a watch for a bio pic...hmmmm.....(if you're wondering about the bio, hold that thought). That's strange, isn't it? What about this one?

Product Advertising


Okay...there's a woman here, but the profile pic's still a watch, even if the watch isn't very much like the others. Also in Colorado, but Boulder this time, and also, bolder, check out the bio:

Text Font Watch


W. T. F?!?!

These were all searchable on kickstarter when I launched my first project, and before things went horribly wrong for the Montrex project backers. Had they done any searching at all, they would have tripped over these, just like I did when I looked for "Watch" projects.

Back to Sujain - How many ways can we check into who this Suj character really is? How many links do we have in his bio? Let's see, personal facebook profile, pinterest, company website, company facebook page.

We've all got "digital footprints" don't we? For my first project, in order to put people's minds more at ease (it was my first project, first watch, etc), I included a link to my LinkedIn profile, where people could see my face (again), all my contacts, the many professional recommendations I've received. It took me years to build that profile and make all the connections in my network - that's a long time and a lot of effort to put into something if I was just a scammer, no?

What if we click the link for the Montrex site (the only link provided)?

Text Font Line Banner Logo


Ruh-roh!

Crowd-funding project creators need to instill trust in backers. They shouldn't appear as if they've got something to hide. Check out how many links PC McDermott provided:

Text Web page Font Screenshot Media


Click that link:

Text Font Line Product Brand


Again, to be fair, these sites were both up and running at one point, but obviously they've been taken down. For those of you who don't know, "Montrex" is really Terry Allison, a serial con artist who's been setting up mushroom watch companies all over the interwebs, and lately, he's been busy on the crowd-funding sites.

As it happens, I saw his website when it was still active - and it looked like doo-doo.

Have you seen my website?

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Strap


I'm not bragging. It's a decent looking site. I've gotten compliments on it (not a lot, but a few). It works. It's functional. It looks good (enough).

It costs me $30/month.

That's it. If someone who's supposedly "in the watch business" can't pony up $30/month for a decent looking website, it has to make you wonder, no?

But maybe the project creator just isn't too astute about websites, and a crappy-looking one isn't an indicator of anything, right?

Maybe. But c'mon, what year is it? Good looking websites are as easy as ordering food off a menu with pictures.

And it's not just the lack of a website, or the lack of quality in a website, it's the overall lack of links. Who doesn't have at least one social media page for either their person or their company brand? It's not just a lack of links, it's lack of information, from someone who's asking you for money.

Lesson 2 - Know something about watches. If it sounds too good to be true...

Look at one of Terry's watches:

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Strap


That flybridge-open heart-escapement-wannabe tourbillon thingy at 6 is a staple of cheap Chinese mechanical movements. I'm not bashing cheap Chinese mechanical movements, but the dial says "Swiss Escapement" - what the hell does that mean?

And look at the prices on the project - they started at $195!!! I don't think I could get my garbage picked up in Switzerland for less than $200. I'd ask Capucho, but he's such a cheap bastard he probably just throws it out the window and lets the wind carry it down the mountain to town.

Read any one of Terry's projects, and they all read like he hired a 12 year old to pick random watch-related words out of Swiss brands' brochures and string 'em together in any way that remotely made sense. Read them more than once, Google ANYTHING in them, and you start to wonder if even he knows what the hell he's talking about.

Once again, not all fraudulent projects are selling ugly "Germasian" watches at flea market prices. If you look at McDermott's Field & Crew project, I have to say it would be much harder to spot. The watches look more generic (RolSub homages), the text makes more sense, the artwork (even the photo-shopped pics) look spotless, the story all "holds together".

There was another "Red Flag" with McDermott, though. Again, you can no longer find it, but at the time this project was still in its funding period, you could see McDermott had a previous project that was nearly identical - but the project was aborted during the funding period, and under mysterious circumstances.

Would that by itself have been enough to warn us off the project? Maybe not, but in retrospect, it was indeed another red flag. Apparently that first project was stopped because someone brought Kickstarter's attention to the fraudulent artwork, or something to that effect.

Lesson 3 - Putting it all together

Terry Allison's frauds are becoming easier to spot. They all follow the same basic formula, and he uses the same MO almost every time - cheap Chinese catalog watch, "baffle them with BS" project copy and bio, slap-dash website and social media pages (if any), etc, etc.

Guys like McDermott are smarter, and so harder to spot. I went back through his project, as well as all the comments he posted while it was in the funding period. If I'm being honest, I didn't spot any obvious slip-ups, and to be even more honest, I don't remember, but I think he did have more links in his bio then.

It makes me wonder if he didn't actually start out with good intentions. If you look at the artwork on the project - he CLEARLY contracted with someone to produce design renderings (they look like the ones my factory produces for my watches). He didn't just stop at photo-shopping, unless all the artwork is photoshopped, and if it is, he's a wizard.

This somewhat proves my earlier point - there really isn't any 100% fool-proof way to avoid scams, unfortunately. Caveat emptor - "let the buyer beware".

Which brings us to the crowdfunding sites like Kickstarter and Indiegogo.

They do have a vetting process. Kickstarter's is not very transparent for creators or backers, but from what I've gathered, it's more rigorous than Indiegogo's (my Acionna project was originally rejected), so use that as you will. I personally would feel at least a little more confident in Kickstarter.

They do NOT guarantee performance by the project creators. Again, you're going back to a trust-based system.

They do NOT hold payments. However, Amazon collects payments for Kickstarter, and their policy is to hold funds for two weeks. Unfortunately, many projects have delivery dates well beyond that, so by the time you realized you got robbed, the money's gone.

My last and best piece of advice here, then, is to simply PUT IT ALL TOGETHER - take your time, do some research on the crowd funding sites, ebay (home of the cheap Chinese mechanical), Amazon, the social media sites, etc. If you get the sense that something may be amiss, back away. If the project and its creator really are for real, the watch will be made, and you'll either be able to buy it from their website or on the secondary market.
 
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#6 ·
Question Doc, how much are these sites making off of the projects they put up. Can it be they are turning their heads or not vetting them enough because they know they will make so much percent on them. They are getting bigger and the money must be rolling in more than they ever expected.

I still feel that if you are not willing to take a risk, you should not reap any reward. IMO
 
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#8 ·
I'd ask Capucho, but he's such a cheap bastard he probably just throws it out the window and lets the wind carry it down the mountain to town.
BEST LINE OF THE ENTIRE HOW-TO! I literally laughed out loud! And had a mental image of Ric heaving rubbish out his window while trying to take a photo of one of his VCM's.

Thanks for putting this together, hopefully it will help someone make an informed decision!

P.S I miss Ric and his story posts and his "shiny, innit?" endings.
 
#9 ·
Good job Doc. The Terry Allison kick starter watch project turned into a disaster and it's members from watch forums like this that got him exposed. I think he even tried to take you and others down at the end. It helps to have people on these forums on the lookout for scams. But too often it always starts with someone getting ripped off and posting about it. Your post should be a sticky
 
#10 ·
Doc, thank you for that brilliant write-up! I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this. If only more people were willing to share their experience and knowledge as freely we'd have a much happier society. Thanks again!


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#11 ·
This is fantastic Doc! I've actually sworn off both Kickstarter and Indiagogo because they can be sketchy. This is a great tutorial! I did back a zombie book though...that was cool.



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#14 ·
This is fantastic Doc! I've actually sworn off both Kickstarter and Indiagogo because they can be sketchy. This is a great tutorial! I did back a zombie book though...that was cool.
The thing is...I don't think they really ARE that sketchy. I'll explain...

When you sit down and order in a restaurant, how do you know the food will be any good, or that the chef washed his hands after using the bathroom? You don't. You hope and trust.

When you order something off of ebay or Amazon - yes, there are buyer protections in place, but they're not foolproof. We've seen threads here about ebay or Amazon purchases gone awry.

When you buy something off of f29? Do we need to go there?

Kickstarter and other crowd funding sites are platforms for commerce - they create a marketplace within the greater Marketplace (big "M") - there is value there. Most of the projects are legit, as are the creators, and crowd-funding serves creators, backers, the marketplace and the Marketplace. Some of these products wouldn't get made otherwise, but when they are made, we all benefit.

The kid making your pizza could put a booger on it. The guy who created the project could be a scam artist.

The lady who "found broken glass" in her Gatorade may have actually put it there herself. The guy who pledged $2000 to my first project turned out to be be a con artist - he was waiting to get the watches before filing a chargeback dispute with Amazon (true story).

The sword cuts both ways. As consumers (or backers), we have to do some critical thinking and use good judgment. As entrepreneurs (or creators), we need to live up to our commitments, but also be vigilant against people who would try to rip US Off.

"A fool and his money are soon parted."
 
#13 ·
Interesting read. I've read about some of the other projects gone wrong. I've only perused Indigogo, but I am an active KS backer. I've been lucky not to have been caught up in any bad one's so far.
 
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#15 ·
For the time being, it seems the easy answer is to limit our backing to projects tied to other trusted sources, like this site. The effort Chris or Suj and some others put in on this site to build a reputation goes a long way to building trust in the projects they ultimately launched. And their word in favor of other projects likewise is invaluable for the rest of us. Chris' support for Johnny's Cobra is the perfect example of that. Think about it: a micro launched by someone who's not active on one of the watch sites? Seems dubious. And, any of the projects that went sideways, were any of them started by known folks from this site, just as an example? As always, consider the source...
 
#18 ·
Ouch...sorry Elshan. I wasn't trying to put a spotlight on your project. There was an old thread recently resurrected, because of someone's dissatisfaction with a project they backed, and then SteamJ posted a thread about the FormFunctionForm guy and his generous offer to Field & Crew backers. The Terry Allison scams and their aftermath are still dragging on. It all got me thinking that it was time to do something like this - as a way to clear the air and give people helpful info.

The vast majority of crowdfunded projects are legit, but a handful of scams or disasters could easily destroy the confidence that the market relies on in order to function.
 
#19 ·
Great write up Chris. I only back things from companies that I have been in contact with outside of Kickstarter, like my favorite pen place and a few others ;-). It was quite kind of you to write this up in the hopes of protecting some newbies.... Do I see a sticky in this thread's future due to the great number of Kickstarter projects (hint hint?)?
 
#22 ·
Awesome writeup! I have yet to back a project on a crowdfunding site, however now I'm confident I'll know what to look for when that time arrives!

The pic of your (Chris') website has reminded me of one thing though, and this is simply a suggestion in no way meant to shift the focus of this thread: the bar of text at the top of the page looks in desperate need of anti-aliasing. Right now it looks far harsher than the rest of the smooth text on the page. Apologies in advance if this was done on purpose.
 
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#24 ·
1. I have no idea what "anti-aliasing" is.

2. My website is hosted by BigCommerce, and it's one of their templates. I'm not even sure I can change whatever it is that needs to be "anti-aliased"

3. Why do I feel like you're walking on eggshells with that comment? Is it because of how I reacted to your comment about my biz card? I may have been off my meds that day. Sorry I was a d1ck about it.
 
#23 ·
Great advice Chris, thanks for this. The nice thing is most (If not all) of this advice holds true for projects that are not watches as well.

The sad thing is it should all be common sense but I think we tend to get a tad excited and gloss over details that usually would make us think twice. Some people may have had second thoughts about these projects but convinced themselves they were imagining things because they really like the designs.

I actually did that with an online purchase recently. Bought a hard drive off another member of another forum I frequent. I knew the price was too good to be true but I convinced myself that it was legit because I really wanted the hard drive at that price. Thankfully I'm not sitting too much out of pocket... but still :/
 
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#26 · (Edited)
I may be in danger of beating a dead horse, but screw it, I never liked that horse anyway...

I LOVE Amazon. I do. But it can be frustrating sometimes. I recently ordered a watch repair tool kit. I didn't realize the seller and the kit were both in China, and a month later, I still haven't received it.

I wanted to order another one, but this time, I wanted to make sure both the item and the seller were in the US. I found 5 or 6 sellers with the identical product, but I had to navigate a half dozen links before I could figure out where any of the sellers or products were actually located. Eventually I just gave up, picked the cheapest one ($15), but then paid $25 for guaranteed overnight delivery.

Every seller on Amazon looks the same. They all look like "Amazon". Ditto ebay.

Contrast that with Kickstarter - you see my face, my story, where I am, where the products are (in their development), you've got lots and lots of info about the idea behind the products, the quality, the components, etc.

Is it messy? Yes, it can be messy. It's not nearly as organized or easily searchable as Amazon or eBay. But it can be searched, and even though it's often a mess, there are patterns in that mess you can find and use to your advantage. You can't do that with Amazon or eBay.

The last two weeks I've been focusing more on marketing and expanding my reach, raising awareness for my brand. If you think Kickstarter is messy, you should check out Fancy.com. It's Twitter married to Instagram with a "buy it now" function as a baby.

If you think Kickstarter is risky, you should check out some of these "members only" online buyers clubs. If you read the fine print, most of the sales are final, no returns at all.
 
#44 ·
I may be in danger of beating a dead horse, but screw it, I never liked that horse anyway...

I LOVE Amazon. I do. But it can be frustrating sometimes. I recently ordered a watch repair tool kit. I didn't realize the seller and the kit were both in China, and a month later, I still haven't received it.

I wanted to order another one, but this time, I wanted to make sure both the item and the seller were in the US. I found 5 or 6 sellers with the identical product, but I had to navigate a half dozen links before I could figure out where any of the sellers or products were actually located. Eventually I just gave up, picked the cheapest one ($15), but then paid $25 for guaranteed overnight delivery.

Every seller on Amazon looks the same. They all look like "Amazon". Ditto ebay.

Contrast that with Kickstarter - you see my face, my story, where I am, where the products are (in their development), you've got lots and lots of info about the idea behind the products, the quality, the components, etc.

Is it messy? Yes, it can be messy. It's not nearly as organized or easily searchable as Amazon or eBay. But it can be searched, and even though it's often a mess, there are patterns in that mess you can find and use to your advantage. You can't do that with Amazon or eBay.

The last two weeks I've been focusing more on marketing and expanding my reach, raising awareness for my brand. If you think Kickstarter is messy, you should check out Fancy.com. It's Twitter married to Instagram with a "buy it now" function as a baby.

If you think Kickstarter is risky, you should check out some of these "members only" online buyers clubs. If you read the fine print, most of the sales are final, no returns at all.
Hey Chris,

First of all, FANTASTIC idea for a thread. I think this will go a long way to helping newbies to crowdfunding avoid getting burned. Also, some great points on the advantages of KS over Amazon, ebay, etc. One thing I wanted to point out however, it seems to me that with Amazon doing damage control is a bit easier.

On KS, you're not backing a finished product, you're backing a project. Contrast with Amazon, where you're (almost?) always buying a product that's already been produced, or close to it.

If you've been scammed with Amazon, therefore, you'll know it in a few weeks when you don't receive your stuff, and you can contact Amazon for help, start a paypal dispute, initiate a chargeback, etc. With KS, since the product might need final development before it can even go into production, you might not know you've been scammed for months. At that point, it might be too late to do a chargeback or take other measures.

Not saying that Amazon is better necessarily. KS's transparency likely makes it harder for scammers. It seems that if you're willing to really research the seller before pledging, KS gives you the ability to do so. If things go wrong, however, it seems the damage can be more easily minimized with Amazon.

You have vastly more experience than I do on this, however, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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#27 ·
Allow me to give you an example:



As for your third point, I know you take immense pride in your work, and while I also know you take constructive criticism well, I do not know whether things like this may be seen to you as trivialities. To put it in different terms, to some this may be seen as calling a poster's argument invalid because he or she misspelled a word.

But anyway, I'm glad you don't take it personally.
 
#29 ·
So I learned something new today. I'll have to mention it to BigCommerce tomorrow.

The graininess of the image aside, I HIGHLY recommend BigCommerce (no affiliation) for anyone looking to open an ecommerce store, especially if their tech skills are on par with mine (read: "nonexistent").

The admin platform is fairly intuitive (after a month or so), and the customer support is absolutely, unequivocally WAAAAYYYYY beyond anything I've ever experienced when calling a phone-based support team, with only one possible exception - Amazon.
 
#30 ·
I have to say that I got a bit scared when I opened up this thread and saw my mug shot smiling back at me.

Admittedly I've stacked on a few kilos and have grown a beard since that shot ;-) Figured I better not scare off potential customers with a current photo.

Solid advice there though Doc...I think there's a lot to be gained by doing some basic checks before pledging.

I guess at least on Kickstarter you can cancel you pledge if you realise things might not be on the level (well, before the campaign ends of course).
 
#35 ·
GREAT THREAD CHRIS AND VERY WELL PUT TOGETHER!


Interestingly both L&H and MWC opened preorders on their own websites first before using the crowd funding platforms- both of you guys had a presence on WUS, which allowed more confidence.


However WIS can be burnt through non-crowdfunding preorders. Think!

OLIVIER
STOLAS

Unfortunately both of these looked legit before going pear shaped. There needs to be a STICKY THREAD OF SHAME
 
#41 ·
I like, and appreciate, the "Independent Watch Co USA" labeled, right there on the dial - so we know they're not beholden to the man, and patriotic.

Though I'd suggest a slight name change to "Truly Honest Not-A-Scam Superlative A#1 Chronometer USA Watch Co".
 
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