Disclaimers:
Some threads recently have me thinking it's high time we (WUS members, watch buyers, lovers of micro-brands, project backers, project creators - basically, all of us) acknowledged, and then dealt with, the gorilla in the room - Crowd-funded watch projects do not always work out as planned, and before you back one, you should arm yourself with the best information and insights available.
As I was thinking about this, I originally meant for it to be a set of do's and don'ts you could use to avoid any chance of being scammed, and ideally, not even be disappointed. But then I realized, ultimately backing a project is not too dissimilar from any other form of internet-based commerce - the entire system relies heavily on a large degree of trust between all the actors, most of whom operate in good faith, but unfortunately there isn't any 100% fool-proof way to stop scammers or charlatans from plying their trade. So what follows is really just meant to be a set of "best practices" you can use to minimize your risk exposure.
Lesson 1 - Who's the project creator?
Behind every project is a person or people. Look here:
There's a picture of Suj, right next to his watch. Good lookin' guy, inne?
Here's John "the Cobra" Lee:
Here's a not horrible pic of me:
What's wrong with the picture below?
Uhmmm...that's not a person, that's a watch. And that's not a name of a person, that's a name of a watch brand. So...your spider-sense ought to be tingling a little bit.
To be fair, just because someone posts a pic of "himself", that by itself doesn't mean it isn't still a scam. Here's an example:
That's "Chris McDermott" (apparent real name Peter C McDermott). But that definitely isn't his watch or strap. Whoever was behind this project photo-shopped a pic of a watch onto stock imagery from a strap supplier - form function form. As soon as the project ended, "Chris" took the money and split.
(This story actually has a hero for the ripped-off project backers. See here - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/fiel...-form-function-form-those-scammed-994239.html)
Let's look closer...check out Suj's bio, and the links within it...
Read it. It makes sense. It sounds like a real person, who's into watches. I can almost here his cute little Aussie accent. John's bio, my bio, every bio I've read from legitimate project creators - there's a STORY there. A story told by a PERSON, who has a NARRATIVE.
What's Montrex got to say for themselves?
What the hell is all that? It reads like the syllabus from the TZ Watchmaker's course - "Day three, hydraulic pressing". Call me when you teach the atomic sit-up. I want to watch.
Now, you can't use the search function on Kickstarter to find these anymore, but there were several watch projects on Kickstarter at the same time, with eerily similar watches and/or bios...
Kinda sorta has the same vibe as that Montrex watch doesn't it? And they're both based in Arvada, Colorado (population, at least 2, apparently). Both with a pic of a watch for a bio pic...hmmmm.....(if you're wondering about the bio, hold that thought). That's strange, isn't it? What about this one?
Okay...there's a woman here, but the profile pic's still a watch, even if the watch isn't very much like the others. Also in Colorado, but Boulder this time, and also, bolder, check out the bio:
W. T. F?!?!
These were all searchable on kickstarter when I launched my first project, and before things went horribly wrong for the Montrex project backers. Had they done any searching at all, they would have tripped over these, just like I did when I looked for "Watch" projects.
Back to Sujain - How many ways can we check into who this Suj character really is? How many links do we have in his bio? Let's see, personal facebook profile, pinterest, company website, company facebook page.
We've all got "digital footprints" don't we? For my first project, in order to put people's minds more at ease (it was my first project, first watch, etc), I included a link to my LinkedIn profile, where people could see my face (again), all my contacts, the many professional recommendations I've received. It took me years to build that profile and make all the connections in my network - that's a long time and a lot of effort to put into something if I was just a scammer, no?
What if we click the link for the Montrex site (the only link provided)?
Ruh-roh!
Crowd-funding project creators need to instill trust in backers. They shouldn't appear as if they've got something to hide. Check out how many links PC McDermott provided:
Click that link:
Again, to be fair, these sites were both up and running at one point, but obviously they've been taken down. For those of you who don't know, "Montrex" is really Terry Allison, a serial con artist who's been setting up mushroom watch companies all over the interwebs, and lately, he's been busy on the crowd-funding sites.
As it happens, I saw his website when it was still active - and it looked like doo-doo.
Have you seen my website?
I'm not bragging. It's a decent looking site. I've gotten compliments on it (not a lot, but a few). It works. It's functional. It looks good (enough).
It costs me $30/month.
That's it. If someone who's supposedly "in the watch business" can't pony up $30/month for a decent looking website, it has to make you wonder, no?
But maybe the project creator just isn't too astute about websites, and a crappy-looking one isn't an indicator of anything, right?
Maybe. But c'mon, what year is it? Good looking websites are as easy as ordering food off a menu with pictures.
And it's not just the lack of a website, or the lack of quality in a website, it's the overall lack of links. Who doesn't have at least one social media page for either their person or their company brand? It's not just a lack of links, it's lack of information, from someone who's asking you for money.
Lesson 2 - Know something about watches. If it sounds too good to be true...
Look at one of Terry's watches:
That flybridge-open heart-escapement-wannabe tourbillon thingy at 6 is a staple of cheap Chinese mechanical movements. I'm not bashing cheap Chinese mechanical movements, but the dial says "Swiss Escapement" - what the hell does that mean?
And look at the prices on the project - they started at $195!!! I don't think I could get my garbage picked up in Switzerland for less than $200. I'd ask Capucho, but he's such a cheap bastard he probably just throws it out the window and lets the wind carry it down the mountain to town.
Read any one of Terry's projects, and they all read like he hired a 12 year old to pick random watch-related words out of Swiss brands' brochures and string 'em together in any way that remotely made sense. Read them more than once, Google ANYTHING in them, and you start to wonder if even he knows what the hell he's talking about.
Once again, not all fraudulent projects are selling ugly "Germasian" watches at flea market prices. If you look at McDermott's Field & Crew project, I have to say it would be much harder to spot. The watches look more generic (RolSub homages), the text makes more sense, the artwork (even the photo-shopped pics) look spotless, the story all "holds together".
There was another "Red Flag" with McDermott, though. Again, you can no longer find it, but at the time this project was still in its funding period, you could see McDermott had a previous project that was nearly identical - but the project was aborted during the funding period, and under mysterious circumstances.
Would that by itself have been enough to warn us off the project? Maybe not, but in retrospect, it was indeed another red flag. Apparently that first project was stopped because someone brought Kickstarter's attention to the fraudulent artwork, or something to that effect.
Lesson 3 - Putting it all together
Terry Allison's frauds are becoming easier to spot. They all follow the same basic formula, and he uses the same MO almost every time - cheap Chinese catalog watch, "baffle them with BS" project copy and bio, slap-dash website and social media pages (if any), etc, etc.
Guys like McDermott are smarter, and so harder to spot. I went back through his project, as well as all the comments he posted while it was in the funding period. If I'm being honest, I didn't spot any obvious slip-ups, and to be even more honest, I don't remember, but I think he did have more links in his bio then.
It makes me wonder if he didn't actually start out with good intentions. If you look at the artwork on the project - he CLEARLY contracted with someone to produce design renderings (they look like the ones my factory produces for my watches). He didn't just stop at photo-shopping, unless all the artwork is photoshopped, and if it is, he's a wizard.
This somewhat proves my earlier point - there really isn't any 100% fool-proof way to avoid scams, unfortunately. Caveat emptor - "let the buyer beware".
Which brings us to the crowdfunding sites like Kickstarter and Indiegogo.
They do have a vetting process. Kickstarter's is not very transparent for creators or backers, but from what I've gathered, it's more rigorous than Indiegogo's (my Acionna project was originally rejected), so use that as you will. I personally would feel at least a little more confident in Kickstarter.
They do NOT guarantee performance by the project creators. Again, you're going back to a trust-based system.
They do NOT hold payments. However, Amazon collects payments for Kickstarter, and their policy is to hold funds for two weeks. Unfortunately, many projects have delivery dates well beyond that, so by the time you realized you got robbed, the money's gone.
My last and best piece of advice here, then, is to simply PUT IT ALL TOGETHER - take your time, do some research on the crowd funding sites, ebay (home of the cheap Chinese mechanical), Amazon, the social media sites, etc. If you get the sense that something may be amiss, back away. If the project and its creator really are for real, the watch will be made, and you'll either be able to buy it from their website or on the secondary market.
- This thread isn't promotional in any way, it is meant to be informational.
- I'll be primarily discussing Kickstarter and Indiegogo, but the advice applies to any other crowdfunding platforms.
- Your mileage may vary, use your best judgment.
Some threads recently have me thinking it's high time we (WUS members, watch buyers, lovers of micro-brands, project backers, project creators - basically, all of us) acknowledged, and then dealt with, the gorilla in the room - Crowd-funded watch projects do not always work out as planned, and before you back one, you should arm yourself with the best information and insights available.
As I was thinking about this, I originally meant for it to be a set of do's and don'ts you could use to avoid any chance of being scammed, and ideally, not even be disappointed. But then I realized, ultimately backing a project is not too dissimilar from any other form of internet-based commerce - the entire system relies heavily on a large degree of trust between all the actors, most of whom operate in good faith, but unfortunately there isn't any 100% fool-proof way to stop scammers or charlatans from plying their trade. So what follows is really just meant to be a set of "best practices" you can use to minimize your risk exposure.
Lesson 1 - Who's the project creator?
Behind every project is a person or people. Look here:
There's a picture of Suj, right next to his watch. Good lookin' guy, inne?
Here's John "the Cobra" Lee:
Here's a not horrible pic of me:
What's wrong with the picture below?
Uhmmm...that's not a person, that's a watch. And that's not a name of a person, that's a name of a watch brand. So...your spider-sense ought to be tingling a little bit.
To be fair, just because someone posts a pic of "himself", that by itself doesn't mean it isn't still a scam. Here's an example:
That's "Chris McDermott" (apparent real name Peter C McDermott). But that definitely isn't his watch or strap. Whoever was behind this project photo-shopped a pic of a watch onto stock imagery from a strap supplier - form function form. As soon as the project ended, "Chris" took the money and split.
(This story actually has a hero for the ripped-off project backers. See here - https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/fiel...-form-function-form-those-scammed-994239.html)
Let's look closer...check out Suj's bio, and the links within it...
Read it. It makes sense. It sounds like a real person, who's into watches. I can almost here his cute little Aussie accent. John's bio, my bio, every bio I've read from legitimate project creators - there's a STORY there. A story told by a PERSON, who has a NARRATIVE.
What's Montrex got to say for themselves?
What the hell is all that? It reads like the syllabus from the TZ Watchmaker's course - "Day three, hydraulic pressing". Call me when you teach the atomic sit-up. I want to watch.
Now, you can't use the search function on Kickstarter to find these anymore, but there were several watch projects on Kickstarter at the same time, with eerily similar watches and/or bios...
Kinda sorta has the same vibe as that Montrex watch doesn't it? And they're both based in Arvada, Colorado (population, at least 2, apparently). Both with a pic of a watch for a bio pic...hmmmm.....(if you're wondering about the bio, hold that thought). That's strange, isn't it? What about this one?
Okay...there's a woman here, but the profile pic's still a watch, even if the watch isn't very much like the others. Also in Colorado, but Boulder this time, and also, bolder, check out the bio:
W. T. F?!?!
These were all searchable on kickstarter when I launched my first project, and before things went horribly wrong for the Montrex project backers. Had they done any searching at all, they would have tripped over these, just like I did when I looked for "Watch" projects.
Back to Sujain - How many ways can we check into who this Suj character really is? How many links do we have in his bio? Let's see, personal facebook profile, pinterest, company website, company facebook page.
We've all got "digital footprints" don't we? For my first project, in order to put people's minds more at ease (it was my first project, first watch, etc), I included a link to my LinkedIn profile, where people could see my face (again), all my contacts, the many professional recommendations I've received. It took me years to build that profile and make all the connections in my network - that's a long time and a lot of effort to put into something if I was just a scammer, no?
What if we click the link for the Montrex site (the only link provided)?
Ruh-roh!
Crowd-funding project creators need to instill trust in backers. They shouldn't appear as if they've got something to hide. Check out how many links PC McDermott provided:
Click that link:
Again, to be fair, these sites were both up and running at one point, but obviously they've been taken down. For those of you who don't know, "Montrex" is really Terry Allison, a serial con artist who's been setting up mushroom watch companies all over the interwebs, and lately, he's been busy on the crowd-funding sites.
As it happens, I saw his website when it was still active - and it looked like doo-doo.
Have you seen my website?
I'm not bragging. It's a decent looking site. I've gotten compliments on it (not a lot, but a few). It works. It's functional. It looks good (enough).
It costs me $30/month.
That's it. If someone who's supposedly "in the watch business" can't pony up $30/month for a decent looking website, it has to make you wonder, no?
But maybe the project creator just isn't too astute about websites, and a crappy-looking one isn't an indicator of anything, right?
Maybe. But c'mon, what year is it? Good looking websites are as easy as ordering food off a menu with pictures.
And it's not just the lack of a website, or the lack of quality in a website, it's the overall lack of links. Who doesn't have at least one social media page for either their person or their company brand? It's not just a lack of links, it's lack of information, from someone who's asking you for money.
Lesson 2 - Know something about watches. If it sounds too good to be true...
Look at one of Terry's watches:
That flybridge-open heart-escapement-wannabe tourbillon thingy at 6 is a staple of cheap Chinese mechanical movements. I'm not bashing cheap Chinese mechanical movements, but the dial says "Swiss Escapement" - what the hell does that mean?
And look at the prices on the project - they started at $195!!! I don't think I could get my garbage picked up in Switzerland for less than $200. I'd ask Capucho, but he's such a cheap bastard he probably just throws it out the window and lets the wind carry it down the mountain to town.
Read any one of Terry's projects, and they all read like he hired a 12 year old to pick random watch-related words out of Swiss brands' brochures and string 'em together in any way that remotely made sense. Read them more than once, Google ANYTHING in them, and you start to wonder if even he knows what the hell he's talking about.
Once again, not all fraudulent projects are selling ugly "Germasian" watches at flea market prices. If you look at McDermott's Field & Crew project, I have to say it would be much harder to spot. The watches look more generic (RolSub homages), the text makes more sense, the artwork (even the photo-shopped pics) look spotless, the story all "holds together".
There was another "Red Flag" with McDermott, though. Again, you can no longer find it, but at the time this project was still in its funding period, you could see McDermott had a previous project that was nearly identical - but the project was aborted during the funding period, and under mysterious circumstances.
Would that by itself have been enough to warn us off the project? Maybe not, but in retrospect, it was indeed another red flag. Apparently that first project was stopped because someone brought Kickstarter's attention to the fraudulent artwork, or something to that effect.
Lesson 3 - Putting it all together
Terry Allison's frauds are becoming easier to spot. They all follow the same basic formula, and he uses the same MO almost every time - cheap Chinese catalog watch, "baffle them with BS" project copy and bio, slap-dash website and social media pages (if any), etc, etc.
Guys like McDermott are smarter, and so harder to spot. I went back through his project, as well as all the comments he posted while it was in the funding period. If I'm being honest, I didn't spot any obvious slip-ups, and to be even more honest, I don't remember, but I think he did have more links in his bio then.
It makes me wonder if he didn't actually start out with good intentions. If you look at the artwork on the project - he CLEARLY contracted with someone to produce design renderings (they look like the ones my factory produces for my watches). He didn't just stop at photo-shopping, unless all the artwork is photoshopped, and if it is, he's a wizard.
This somewhat proves my earlier point - there really isn't any 100% fool-proof way to avoid scams, unfortunately. Caveat emptor - "let the buyer beware".
Which brings us to the crowdfunding sites like Kickstarter and Indiegogo.
They do have a vetting process. Kickstarter's is not very transparent for creators or backers, but from what I've gathered, it's more rigorous than Indiegogo's (my Acionna project was originally rejected), so use that as you will. I personally would feel at least a little more confident in Kickstarter.
They do NOT guarantee performance by the project creators. Again, you're going back to a trust-based system.
They do NOT hold payments. However, Amazon collects payments for Kickstarter, and their policy is to hold funds for two weeks. Unfortunately, many projects have delivery dates well beyond that, so by the time you realized you got robbed, the money's gone.
My last and best piece of advice here, then, is to simply PUT IT ALL TOGETHER - take your time, do some research on the crowd funding sites, ebay (home of the cheap Chinese mechanical), Amazon, the social media sites, etc. If you get the sense that something may be amiss, back away. If the project and its creator really are for real, the watch will be made, and you'll either be able to buy it from their website or on the secondary market.