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  1. #981
    hwa
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    I don't even get the NTH thing. Who brought up NTH as a knock against Ginault? What's one got to do with the other? This is just a fabricated misdirection. I'm only writing this because it seems some of you are pointing at me. I'll remind you that I'm the guy who compared an NTH to an OWC and a SMP (three blue divers, which I compared because ... blue), but I did NOT compare the Ginault to an NTH. I compared the Ginault to a 16610. For what it's worth, the Ginault and the NTH Ampion/Amphion Vintage have some small similarity, but they're totally different. The NTH is an homage that is not trying to be a 1:1 replica, whereas the Ginault plainly is trying to be a 1:1, notwithstanding its choice to mashup a variety of Rolex looks. The case is a 16610. I would never tell someone looking for an NTH to buy a Ginault, or someone looking for a Rolex copy to buy an NTH. That would be stupid. So put away the straw-men already.

    The movement argument is a closer one. Still, I don't get the pushback. If the justification for the 1300 price tag is an in-house, built in America super clone ETA-based movement, then that's what it should be. It hardly need be said that people pay a premium for in-house movements--whether that money is well-spent is a separate issue. The fact is, in-house movements have cachet, typical ETA clones not only don't have cachet, they are largely forgettable or derided. Ginault wants credit for something better than an asian clone, and my point is that until there's some substantiation for its claims--which dare I say Ginault STILL has not provided--there's no substantive reason for believing the Ginault is running anything better than a typical ETA clone. Don't give me any of this jazz about performance over a week. That's not a track record, not yet anyway. Maybe all this will sort itself out, but in the meantime, there's no good reason to think it's any better than your basic, run-of-the-mill ETA, which you can get in a Steinhart for, what is it now, under $400? Why is that not relevant, and what is wrong with pointing that out to people who come to WUS for information about watches, not just to slobber on digital images of watches that can be seen elsewhere. Nothing wrong with pics, but there's nothing wrong with open, honest debate about the offering, either.
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  2. #982
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    My Ginault is less than 3 minutes fast over the total of the past month I have owned the watch. That means it is averaging +5 per day and that includes skiing, snow-blowing, and some days just sitting in my watch box as I wear another watch. It has not been reset or even had the crown pulled out since receiving the watch in early January. This performance is better than any "average" ETA 2824-2. Maybe I'm just lucky.

    You brought up the argument suggesting a $1,300 watch should not have a $100 movement in it. I believe your argument is foolish and I can name any number of micros and majors which suggest otherwise. In my opinion, a watch is worth more than the cost of the movement. If you said for $1,300, you'd be looking at the vintage-inspired Oris 42, I'd agree with you, but guess what? It runs an ETA 2824-2 clone movement as well.

    If you think a Ginault is expensive for a mash-up of Rolex inspired design themes (16610 case, 5517 hands, gloss dial with maxi plots - kind of LV-ish, but in a no-date style) then you'll really love the Tempus Machina:
    Name:  Tempus.jpg
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    It is a 16610 inspired case with no crown guards and a kind of 6538 design. Heck, it'll only cost you $25,000.

    Here is really my point in making a response:

    There are hundreds, if not thousands, of watches introduced and posted about on WUS that I don't care for. I don't go posting negative and pointless arguments about the watches I don't like. I usually say nothing at all.

    The fact that you and a handful of others feel compelled to continually post negative comments on this thread, to the point of being reprimanded and even banned, makes me believe there is a deeper play at hand here.

    In my near decade participating on WUS, I've seen shill reviews to pump up some watch. I've seen vendors set up false user names to post false praise on their products.

    Maybe I am just being overly suspicious, but maybe this is just someone's desire to take guerrilla marketing in a different direction.

    If you like the Ginault, buy one. If you like NTH, buy one.

    If you are worried about future service of a non ETA movement or concerned about the value of a $1,300 watch with a $150 movement, start a new thread. This isn't the place for those discussions.

  3. #983
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    Quote Originally Posted by hwa View Post
    I don't even get the NTH thing. Who brought up NTH as a knock against Ginault? What's one got to do with the other? This is just a fabricated misdirection. I'm only writing this because it seems some of you are pointing at me. I'll remind you that I'm the guy who compared an NTH to an OWC and a SMP (three blue divers, which I compared because ... blue), but I did NOT compare the Ginault to an NTH. I compared the Ginault to a 16610. For what it's worth, the Ginault and the NTH Ampion/Amphion Vintage have some small similarity, but they're totally different. The NTH is an homage that is not trying to be a 1:1 replica, whereas the Ginault plainly is trying to be a 1:1, notwithstanding its choice to mashup a variety of Rolex looks. The case is a 16610. I would never tell someone looking for an NTH to buy a Ginault, or someone looking for a Rolex copy to buy an NTH. That would be stupid. So put away the straw-men already.

    The movement argument is a closer one. Still, I don't get the pushback. If the justification for the 1300 price tag is an in-house, built in America super clone ETA-based movement, then that's what it should be. It hardly need be said that people pay a premium for in-house movements--whether that money is well-spent is a separate issue. The fact is, in-house movements have cachet, typical ETA clones not only don't have cachet, they are largely forgettable or derided. Ginault wants credit for something better than an asian clone, and my point is that until there's some substantiation for its claims--which dare I say Ginault STILL has not provided--there's no substantive reason for believing the Ginault is running anything better than a typical ETA clone. Don't give me any of this jazz about performance over a week. That's not a track record, not yet anyway. Maybe all this will sort itself out, but in the meantime, there's no good reason to think it's any better than your basic, run-of-the-mill ETA, which you can get in a Steinhart for, what is it now, under $400? Why is that not relevant, and what is wrong with pointing that out to people who come to WUS for information about watches, not just to slobber on digital images of watches that can be seen elsewhere. Nothing wrong with pics, but there's nothing wrong with open, honest debate about the offering, either.
    Very true. NTH and Ginault are not of the same breed. The review you did on the Rover vs 16610 is well balanced and respected.

    I also agree with you on the notion of their movements. Right now we only know that it works well but does not mean it is a proven track record yet.

    In my humble opinion I would think the justification of Ginault's $1,300 price tag is not just because of their 2824 clone but rather the over all workmanship and quality on each part. Just look at the mid case by it self. I'd have to say that thing alone is very amazing with all the fine details. Many of the finer details of the OR which I am slowly picking up over the past weeks while wearing it are probably lost on many members. People probably view value and quality more on weather or not the bezel insert is ceramic or aluminum, if the insert is lumed or not rather than these fine details that probably would take years of skills to master.

    An analogy I'd like to make is in the world of bicycles. Most people would automatically think carbon frames trumps aluminum frames any day of the week in terms of performance and value. However a well designed and executed aluminum frame is actually way better than any 2nd rated carbon frames out there on the market. But many cyclers would fall into that marketing trap regardless.

    So it is kind of sad to see that many of these things that went into the OR are not perceived as justification for the asking price.
    Last edited by mf1tym; February 10th, 2017 at 00:24.
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  5. #984
    Avo
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    Quote Originally Posted by hwa View Post
    I don't even get the NTH thing. Who brought up NTH as a knock against Ginault? What's one got to do with the other? This is just a fabricated misdirection. ... I did NOT compare the Ginault to an NTH.
    Um, actually you did:

    Quote Originally Posted by hwa View Post
    But what's your point? That Ginault, at an MSRP of 1300 is better quality or value than an NTH at an MSRP of 600? That's so dim that it's not worth switching on that light. I mean, seriously, duh.
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  6. #985
    Avo
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    Quote Originally Posted by hwa View Post
    If the justification for the 1300 price tag is an in-house, built in America super clone ETA-based movement, then that's what it should be.
    That's not the justification in my mind. For me, it's the whole package: quality of case, bracelet, dial, indices, lume, crystal, and​ the five-week, five-point individual adjustment of each movement. In my sample, it's resulted in an on-wrist performance that is better than +1 s/day, and has been rock-solid over 3+ weeks. Every other 2824 I've ever had has moved noticeably over the same time period.

    So for me, the claim that the movement has largely USA-made parts is kind of irrelevant. I don't really care. It's not what I like about the watch.

    I get that there are people who might care more than I do about the provenance of the movement, and that such people are disappointed that Ginault has not been more forthcoming.

    But no other watch company has either. Who supplies the American parts for the Weiss movement? Do you know? Do you think Cameron Weiss will tell you? Try asking him. No watch company gives out that kind of info publicly.
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  7. #986
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    Quote Originally Posted by Avo View Post
    That's not the justification in my mind. For me, it's the whole package: quality of case, bracelet, dial, indices, lume, crystal, and​ the five-week, five-point individual adjustment of each movement. In my sample, it's resulted in an on-wrist performance that is better than +1 s/day, and has been rock-solid over 3+ weeks. Every other 2824 I've ever had has moved noticeably over the same time period.

    So for me, the claim that the movement has largely USA-made parts is kind of irrelevant. I don't really care. It's not what I like about the watch.

    I get that there are people who might care more than I do about the provenance of the movement, and that such people are disappointed that Ginault has not been more forthcoming.

    But no other watch company has either. Who supplies the American parts for the Weiss movement? Do you know? Do you think Cameron Weiss will tell you? Try asking him. No watch company gives out that kind of info publicly.
    Someone suggested that parts sourcing in the USA would make a good topic for another thread and by crackie, consider it done.

    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/part...l#post38517610
    Last edited by hanshananigan; February 10th, 2017 at 06:16.

  8. #987
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    Quote Originally Posted by hwa View Post
    Hah! Glimpses! (Its totally therapeutic, by the way.)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I was the one who made the hypothetical statement that the unusually determined (to the point of reprimand and banning) negativity towards this brand could be a form of "negative shilling" / guerrilla marketing.

    This hypothetical conclusion is actually much more complimentary to those posters than other potential conclusions which spring to mind.

    Repeating a negative sentiment ad nauseam does not make it valid. In my opinion, it actually reduces the potential veracity of the claim and make one wonder about ulterior motives.

    If you feel you did not get what you paid for in the Ginault, and you are obviously unable to return it due to having worn the watch, I would suggest you sell it and put the entire experience behind you. I've already had an unsolicited offer to purchase my example (which I politely declined). This is the first time this has happened to me on a non-limited edition watch. I have no doubts you could sell your example very quickly.
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  9. #988
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    "In my opinion, it actually reduces the potential veracity of the claim and make one wonder about ulterior motives."

    +1

  10. #989
    hwa
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    Yes, I see. So, if i have this right, repeating negative statements reduces the veracity of the claim and suggests ulterior motives, whereas repeating positive statements does not reduce the veracity of the claim or suggest ulterior motives? Literally, what you wrote, @ryeguy, was followed immediately by @radar1's direct quote, with a "+1". Double standard, incarnate.

    I don't think I understand why some are so threatened by my legitimate questions. Does it bother you that I have the watch still, and that I, too, politely declined a purchase offer? It must make you crazy that I repeatedly confirm the quality of the build and value at the pricepoint. It must really make you nuts that I don't mind saying that I think it's better build quality that the Damasko and OWC at the same MSRP, movement questions aside. Yet, what I say is so odious that you can't just let it go without taking a shot at me. Fire away.

    Without freedom of speech, we'd all be in the swamp.
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  11. #990
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    Re: CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN

    Quote Originally Posted by hwa View Post
    ...../ I have the watch still, and that I, too, politely declined a purchase offer?/...

    ..../ I repeatedly confirm the quality of the build and value at the pricepoint. /...

    ..../ I don't mind saying that I think it's better build quality that the Damasko and OWC/.....
    +1
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