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  1. #21
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    Quote Originally Posted by ronalddheld View Post
    Mr. Moderator really would like to roll back the personal attacks back to the way it was 5 or more years ago.
    Was ppaulusz as disrespectful and antagonistic then as he is now?? From his recent activity it seems like he's trying to get himself banned, but you're not publicly saying anything to him regarding his behavior, so has this forum endured him for that many years??

  2. #22
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    Quote Originally Posted by ronalddheld View Post
    Mr. Moderator really would like to roll back the personal attacks back to the way it was 5 or more years ago.
    Then do your job. One person lights the fuse in almost ALL cases, but you fail to do anything.

    From WUS Rules:

    2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.
    This has been violated REPEATEDLY by the same person, but you don't take action. Are we to believe that you're doing anything but protecting him at this point? Because it darn sure feels that way.
    nycddancer, dwalby and Evil Minion like this.
    The truth is rarely pure and never simple.

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  3. #23
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    I don't see Seiko shooting for 1 SPY, for a few reasons:

    --not that much market demand for this level of accuracy, especially in the face of RF and GPS
    --uncertainty for quartz *generally*, if smartwatches can manage even semi-reasonable battery life (2 days is what I'm thinking).
    --Seiko's been VERY conservative in updating their movements, both mechanical and quartz.
    --Power consumption seems to be a problem. IIRC, the reserve on the 0100 is 4 months? That's around 1/3 the time of most of their more basic, modern 3-handers. Grand Seiko will probably never do solar, because the GS signature is first the high-quality finish...and second, the dials.

    I do agree there's a serious problem with price structure, unless the A0x0's become the "artistic" HAQs with the washi paper dials and such, and leaving the 0100's as the "technical" HAQs. Maybe they can be priced around $4k, but by the same token, there are expectations for watches at that level that need to be met. So, I really don't know. Citizen's marketing makes no sense to me...unless they keep it up at $5K+.
    The truth is rarely pure and never simple.

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  5. #24
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    Good points @gangrel

    Just a thought: maybe the watch is a halo product that they don’t want to sell by the bucket load, maybe they loose money on it in general and producing the movement in quantities won’t be feasible. That way they keep the price high to limit people buying it while having a halo product in the range that sells more pedestrian products. And to stay on top of the technical development / bragging rights.

    Again, not claiming this is what happens but who knows....

    Watches in profile....

  6. #25
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    My wife wags her finger when telling me off. She doesn't do that with her kinder kids. It could be due to the age difference (57 vs. 4), I suppose. Some kids you've just got to let them have their day. They won't listen. It takes them a while to learn social skills, some never do. It's easier to just let them get on with it.

  7. #26
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    I think perhaps it costs less to make and develop the 0100 Movement than some folks here might surmise.
    From the perspective of a buyer: I'd like to see Citizen's 0100 Movement in a $100 watch.
    From a long-term perspective, there's declining demand and profitability in the range of watches Citizen sells in. I think Citizen's most successful move was towards the Eco-Drive, which has come to include most of the watches they sell for the simple reason that changing a battery is annoying. They undercut the sales of the battery manufacturers in doing so, but Citizen is not primarily involved in the battery business. They also undercut their competitors who do not offer solar-power in all or nearly all of their watches. Why buy an inaccurate watch when you can get a more accurate one for the same money?

    The 0100 movement could probably, using the same basic technology offer a 5 Second/year watch with less attention to detail for $500 or the A060 movement could move down to the $500 range and become as ubiquitous as their Eco-Drive watches. They might come up with a quick marketing time like "Eco-Drive" for Solar, or "Perpetual Calendar" that they could label the face of the watch with to indicate the accuracy for easy consumer understanding, like Certina's "Precidrive".

    Nearly all consumers will take "Better for less" or "Better for the same $" there's a market of course for "It's good cause it costs a lot" and "It's better cause no one else can get one." but those markets are fairly small, and not really Citizen's niche.

    Few consumers who have owned a Solar-Powered watch are apt to go back. Replacing batteries and charging a smart watch are a hassle. Adjusting the time is a hassle (hence radio-controlled, or High Accuracy). I think Radio-Controlled 'solves the problem' for most consumers cheaper than High Accuracy, but for a smaller subset, there's a preference for inherent accuracy for the same reasons as some like and enjoy a mechanical "it's neat" or "it's something to talk about".
    tomchicago and Viseguy like this.

  8. #27
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    I think perhaps it costs less to make and develop the 0100 Movement than some folks here might surmise.
    Manufacture? Perhaps, but that's hard to say. Develop? The differences between the 0100 and a normal, even HA, quartz movement are considerable. A proof of concept is one thing; an industrial-scale, nearly bullet-proof implementation is a whole nuther thing.

    From the perspective of a buyer: I'd like to see Citizen's 0100 Movement in a $100 watch.
    Well of course. I'd love to be able to fly...it's about as likely. And from a business perspective, it might be suicidal.

    From a long-term perspective, there's declining demand and profitability in the range of watches Citizen sells in. I think Citizen's most successful move was towards the Eco-Drive, which has come to include most of the watches they sell for the simple reason that changing a battery is annoying. They undercut the sales of the battery manufacturers in doing so, but Citizen is not primarily involved in the battery business. They also undercut their competitors who do not offer solar-power in all or nearly all of their watches. Why buy an inaccurate watch when you can get a more accurate one for the same money?
    I don't know the exact numbers but...I suspect battery quartz sells 10x the volume of solar quartz, so I hardly see how the battery makers have been undercut. It is a point of competitive advantage against, say, Swatch Group brands, but for many people it's a non-issue, particularly with the improved battery life in, say, the ETA F-series movements. Nor is watch selection a strictly (or even mostly) rational decision. Next watch I have coming in is a Ming 17.06 Copper...because it's gorgeous! 5 seconds a day? Fine, for my watch use patterns, which is "switch to new watch every 2-3 days."

    The 0100 movement could probably, using the same basic technology offer a 5 Second/year watch with less attention to detail for $500 or the A060 movement could move down to the $500 range and become as ubiquitous as their Eco-Drive watches. They might come up with a quick marketing time like "Eco-Drive" for Solar, or "Perpetual Calendar" that they could label the face of the watch with to indicate the accuracy for easy consumer understanding, like Certina's "Precidrive".
    $500 is still a LOT, for most people. The G530 Exceeds could, I think, be found around that point, street price...I think they're higher now, but...600, I think. So same ballpark. But basic Eco Drives run under 100, fairly routinely. That's still quite a bit for many.

    They already have the G530 movement. It's clearly NOT been hugely successful, because...checking on Citizen's site, they discontinued it. Maybe it's been moved; it was in the Exceed line, and there are none. But even searching on Citizen's site for "G530" brings up only manuals...no watches. That was their mid-level...and they stopped making it. OK, maybe they're gonna do more basic A010 or A060 pieces at, let's say, the 800-1000 price point, with the current-level pieces staying at their higher price points, or perhaps a little lower. No one's arguing the point that Citizen is creating some marketing issues for themselves.

    "Perpetual Calendar" is part of the feature set of a watch; it has nothing to do with accuracy.

    Nearly all consumers will take "Better for less" or "Better for the same $" there's a market of course for "It's good cause it costs a lot" and "It's better cause no one else can get one." but those markets are fairly small, and not really Citizen's niche.
    There's a HUGE market for "it's good because it costs a lot"...altho largely that's "wow look at that price it must be really good" to support "80% off!!!!!" marketing. And, define better. Battery swaps are not hugely important to many. Accuracy isn't that critical for many:

    https://www.fhs.swiss/scripts/getsta...c_190808_a.pdf

    Yes, quartz outsells mechanical by about 2.5 to 1, with Swiss watchs...but how much of that is purely price-driven? And note that the trend is shifting back in favor of mechanical watches; the gap is much narrower.

    It's also clear to me that accuracy isn't a big selling point for most. Best example is Swatch...Certina uses 100% PreciDrive for their quartz, but no one else does. AFAIK, neither Tissot nor Hamilton has a single PreciDrive men's watch. Rado never bothers you with little niggling details such as "what movement is in here?" You can find out sometimes but it's not worth the trouble...but IIRC when I have seen em, they're never PreciDrive. Longines definitely has their HAQ line. Mido does very little quartz; they've got a quartz chronograph that MIGHT have a PreciDrive movement, but I doubt it. The basic point? If superior accuracy was a big factor, wouldn't Swatch's own brands be using their readily available movements more??? They have several, in both the entry-level Trendline (the F-series, which Certina uses) and the high-end, brass Flatline E-series. But they don't. The Tissot Excellence is a $2000 list watch...because the case is 18k rose gold. They're using a DINKY little mid-level movement, the 902.101.

    https://www.eta.ch/en/our-products/q...latline-902101

    What seems to be the selling point? 10 year battery life.

    Few consumers who have owned a Solar-Powered watch are apt to go back. Replacing batteries and charging a smart watch are a hassle. Adjusting the time is a hassle (hence radio-controlled, or High Accuracy). I think Radio-Controlled 'solves the problem' for most consumers cheaper than High Accuracy, but for a smaller subset, there's a preference for inherent accuracy for the same reasons as some like and enjoy a mechanical "it's neat" or "it's something to talk about".
    Battery has been covered. Many HAQs don't offer independent hour adjustment...so twice a year, a regular quartz has to be reset. Quartz watches are spec'd to 20 seconds a month, but often do better...maybe needing 1 reset during the summer, as in the US, DST now runs 8 full months.

    The fans of intrinsic accuracy aren't a minority, we're downright freaks. By and large...tech heads. Watch geeks. 16M Swiss quartz watches in 2018...I seriously doubt 160,000 were HAQ, and of those, the "preference for inherent accuracy" is likely a tiny fraction of that. Europe doesn't seem to do RF that much, as far as I can tell. That's a Japanese feature for the most part. (There's Junghans for sure, but that's the only one I can recall offhand.) So it's a little biased, but there's no basis to assert there's a preference being expressed when there are no options available to demonstrate preferences.
    The truth is rarely pure and never simple.

    Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

  9. #28
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    There is more to the Chronomaster movements than just accuracy -- watch a slo-mo video of the hands ticking. At least the A660 is dead silent when held up to the ear.

    People who care to buy HAQ's are kind of semi-intrinsically people that want one watch for the rest of their life and not have to worry about it -- i.e. not the best source of luxury watch customers.

  10. #29
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    Quote Originally Posted by gangrel View Post

    The fans of intrinsic accuracy aren't a minority, we're downright freaks. By and large...tech heads. Watch geeks. 16M Swiss quartz watches in 2018...I seriously doubt 160,000 were HAQ, and of those, the "preference for inherent accuracy" is likely a tiny fraction of that.
    I would agree. If you explained to most normal folks why your HAQ watch was special, that it was a time standard unto itself, you'd probably get a blank stare. But to those who understand, HAQs are marvelous little wonders.
    watchcrank likes this.

  11. #30
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    Re: 0100 Citizen +/- 1 sec/year!

    BTW, just ran into another reason to prefer solar to battery...

    Just remembered that my regular kitchen timer's battery is basically dead. Check...button cell. 357. Oh, lemme see, I have a couple diff sizes for watches and that one's pretty common.

    321 and 315.

    ARGH. :)
    The truth is rarely pure and never simple.

    Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

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