Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph
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  1. #1
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    Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Hello everybody,

    this is my first post here in the world of HAQ-watches. I need some help deciding between these two watches.

    I have read most of the massive thread regarding the Conquest VHP and the comparison with the DS2 and the old VHP from Chris01.

    I am leaning towards the Conquest VHP and can get it for a pretty good price, but I have some doubts and I could also get the DS2 for less money.

    Is the finishing on the Longines (case) a step up from the Certina or am I just paying for the name (/movement/marketing) here?

    Regarding the movements I am wondering if the new movement (L288.2) really is a step up from the ETA 251.264. The specification is a bit tighter within 5 seconds and it at has the GPD-system/ perpetual calendar. It seems from the VHP thread that it is a bit luck from the draw and the right wearing pattern that the watch will be within these specs though. Additionally it has no jewels and I am concerned with the longevity of the movement (I know jewels dont mean = quality but still).

    Am I missing something else?


    Thank you everybody, I wish you a happy new year!

  2. #2
    Banned ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Quote Originally Posted by M3tr5d View Post
    ...Additionally it has no jewels and I am concerned with the longevity of the movement (I know jewels don’t mean = quality but still)...
    Believe it or not "no jewels" can indicate a modern high-tech movement and in this case it does indicate a modern high-tech movement!

    Happy New Year, everyone!
    Last edited by ppaulusz; December 31st, 2018 at 09:37.
    watchcrank likes this.

  3. #3
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    Believe it or not "no jewels" can indicate a modern high-tech movement and in this case it does indicate a modern high-tech movement!

    Happy New Year, everyone!

    I only believe technical assertions which are backed up by facts.
    I can see only 3 choices
    a) The previous Longines VHP included jewels for marketing rather than technical reasons
    b) The new Longines VHP has technical improvements which extend the life of a non-jeweled bearing
    c) The new Longines VHP a shorter no-maintenance life than the previous version
    Which one would you choose ?
    Wempe Quartz Marine Chronometer, Longines VHP, GO Senator Excellence

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  5. #4
    Banned ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    I only believe technical assertions which are backed up by facts.
    I can see only 3 choices
    a) The previous Longines VHP included jewels for marketing rather than technical reasons
    b) The new Longines VHP has technical improvements which extend the life of a non-jeweled bearing
    c) The new Longines VHP a shorter no-maintenance life than the previous version
    Which one would you choose ?
    I'd choose:
    d) Search this forum for fly-by-wire quartz movement(s)!

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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    I'd choose:
    d) Search this forum for fly-by-wire quartz movement(s)!
    But this movement is not fly by wire is it? It has 3 motors. One for the seconds hand, one for the minutes and one for the date.
    The hour hand is connected with the minute hand through gears. Gears mean pivots and this means jewels could be used.

    I assume that there is other gears too, there was a patent in the VHP thread, that could describe the movement used here, all in all there are definitely gears in the new VHP movement. This means it is not fly-by-wire right? I will look it up though.

    The old Eta 251.264 has 5 motors like the new chronograph version of the VHP. It has 27 jewels, the new one has zero. So I ask myself the same question as in the variants a) to c) from DaveM. Does the movement simply not need the jewels?

    It would be weird for ETA to leave out the jewels of their new high-end movement if they are needed for better longevity though.

  7. #6
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Get the Longines.
    ronalddheld likes this.

  8. #7
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    [QUOTE=M3tr5d;47801541]But this movement is not fly by wire is it? It has 3 motors. One for the seconds hand, one for the minutes and one for the date.
    The hour hand is connected with the minute hand through gears. Gears mean pivots and this means jewels could be used. ]

    I understand 'fly by wire' to mean that operator adjustments are made via electronic commands rather than mechanical intervention.
    By this definition the new VHP is 'fly by wire'.
    I think that this is a significant improvement over the old VHP (and Certina ?) in terms of both reliability and convenience.
    At the same time I cannot see what it has to do with need for jewels, and I do not think that the software implementation of VHP fly-by wire is very good.
    Wempe Quartz Marine Chronometer, Longines VHP, GO Senator Excellence

  9. #8
    Member Hans Moleman's Avatar
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Quote Originally Posted by M3tr5d View Post
    Does the movement simply not need the jewels?
    The new movement has a correction system. It knows the position of the hands and it knows the time.

    Any problems that are the result of lesser bearings are corrected.

    Without such a feedback system it pays to invest in expensive bearings. But if you correct often enough, why bother?
    ronalddheld likes this.

  10. #9
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    Hans asserts :-
    The new movement has a correction system. It knows the position of the hands and it knows the time.

    Any problems that are the result of lesser bearings are corrected.

    I do not buy this unless the seconds and minutes hands are driven directly from 60-step-per-revolution motors, which I do not believe to be the case.
    The correction-system gives initial calibration and compensates for mechanical shocks or severe electromagnetic interference.
    Precise hand alignment away from the (12-oclock) calibration-point still requires precise mechanics. If the bearing-system (jewels or not) became bad enough to require assistance from the correction-system the watch would need attention !

    This is not to deny that even in a geared system the design of the stepper-motor (ie how smoothly and unifomly it indexes) is probably the most important factor in good hand-alignment.
    Wempe Quartz Marine Chronometer, Longines VHP, GO Senator Excellence

  11. #10
    Member dicioccio's Avatar
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    Re: Conquest VHP 2017 or Certina DS-2 Chronograph

    In a watch the jewel bearings are important where a high torque is applied. This happens for a mechanical one where the torque is applied to the hour hand and gear-linked to the seconds hand which handles the ticks using the oscillator. Thus the whole chain is stressed by a high torque.

    In a quartz watch it is the opposite: the seconds hand is driven by a stepper motor and the minutes and hour hands are driven with gears (with a 1 motor design), which involves a very low torque. In a fly by wire movement (such as the Citizen E510 or my Oceanus OCW-S100) each hand is driven by a separate motor.

    Whatever the type (geared vs non geared) this has nothing to do with 1) hands alignment or 2) friction. The hands alignment is given by precise mechanics and other alignment systems (which the Longines HAS and the Certina HAS NOT). The friction is always low because it basically depends on the stress given by the torque which is, again, low. The modern plastic materials and the precision of the mold can produce exceptional gears with no need to be lubed. In the past maybe it was more convenient to use more conventional metal gears (which are anyway more difficult to craft and need to be lubed) and the use of jeweled bearings.

    Talking about hands alignment, the Citizen A660 and the Seiko 9F movements (probably the best ever made together with the old Longines VHP) reported several hands alignment issues so even high end movements can be affected by this problem if they do not have hands correction systems. For example my Casio OCW-S100 (which cost 1/5 of a GS) have it so the hands alignment is nothing less than perfect.

    All above is to say that hands alignment, fly by wire and jewel bearings are aspects very very low correlated one to another. For sure the Longines we are talking about in this thread is far more technologically advanced than the Certina so if you care for a modern watch go for the Longines.
    DaveM, gaijin and drm7 like this.

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