SOT: 5G references
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  1. #1
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    SOT: 5G references

    If the latency of 5G is<1 ms, how will it affect the work we do here?

  2. #2
    Member Hans Moleman's Avatar
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by ronalddheld View Post
    If the latency of 5G is<1 ms, how will it affect the work we do here?
    The idea of a low network latency is that it allows for real time applications. Drive a car remotely. That sort of thing.

    I could imagine an application that measures the watch's rate remotely.

    We'll have to see what of those 5G promises come to pass.
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Yeah, I could see potentially using it as an alternative to the RF or GPS signals, on a smartwatch that's got its own number (or if possible, shares it with a phone), for sync purposes. Or, of course, going roundabout and setting the phone time via the cell signal, then using Bluetooth to the watch. That's already in place with a few companies; Casio for sure, and I think Citizen. This may be the longer-term replacement for RF for most, especially if it can be executed in a reasonable size, and if GPS can't be.

    But it's gonna be a while, as the 5G rollout is rather slow. Found a site with some maps, and a link to an article about why your area might not get it:

    https://www.wirelessnoise.com/2018/0...ghting-5g.html

    So I don't see it as a factor for 5-7 years for replacing RF/GPS on a watch. Smartphones...believe I saw that some phones may have 5G first half of 2019, just trying to stay ahead of the curve.
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  5. #4
    Member Hans Moleman's Avatar
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Moleman View Post
    The idea of a low network latency is that it allows for real time applications. Drive a car remotely. That sort of thing.

    I could imagine an application that measures the watch's rate remotely.

    We'll have to see what of those 5G promises come to pass.
    Thinking about it, how great it would be and all, I don't think that will happen.

    The cloud takes at least 70 ms to get to the other end of the world. 20.000 divided by 300.000. 5G or not.

  6. #5
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Moleman View Post
    Thinking about it, how great it would be and all, I don't think that will happen.

    The cloud takes at least 70 ms to get to the other end of the world. 20.000 divided by 300.000. 5G or not.
    Not relevant, and not what latency means here, I'm pretty sure. The latency is between the tower and your phone only, it's not complete network delays. Those can't be measured because there are external factors involved. Where latency matters is in any case of handshaking...page loads with a bunch of images, for example, may well have a handshake for each image. In gaming such as real-time shooters, latency really is critical because each mouse move creates a handshake. Pretty sure it helps with streaming to smooth frame-to-frame data flow, or at least chunk to chunk.

    And if all you want is time checking? The cell network itself may become a fairly high-quality distributed time server. Get a primary time source, then feed across the cell net? Should be quite feasible to get errors down to a few milliseconds across the local cell towers. (Plus, there's a really good chance this is something you want for location services. Might have to be MORE accurate.) So the latency on a time hack from a cell tower is *only* the latency.

    That said...reading more about it...it's gonna be a while. Higher frequencies are less friendly, IIRC; they want line of sight. So that means more towers. Plus it's a whole new hardware setup. So, the rollout costs and administrative problems are bigger. Plus, if you're relying on the 1 ms latency...that could be spotty, with coverage gaps. Again, that is, I believe, a consequence of moving up the frequency. They're talking multiple frequencies in use at the same time, with the lower frequencies for less data-intensive aspects.
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by gangrel View Post
    And if all you want is time checking? The cell network itself may become a fairly high-quality distributed time server. Get a primary time source, then feed across the cell net? Should be quite feasible to get errors down to a few milliseconds across the local cell towers. (Plus, there's a really good chance this is something you want for location services. Might have to be MORE accurate.)
    Is there a need to the network provider for an especially accurate time to be available in the cell tower? If not, not sure what could make this happen unless a very large consumer demand arises for atomic-level timekeeping to be distributed from the towers. As you note, atomic-precision timekeeping from a nearby tower would allow GPS to get a good lock with one fewer satellite; I'm just not sure there's enough consumer demand to make the cell companies drop a Symetricon or what-have-you into their towers or even to distribute time from one precisely accounting for transit latency.

    (I used to work for a cell company. That whole industry is tight as two coats of paint. Not just in US, though US is among the worst about it.)

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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by watchcrank View Post
    Is there a need to the network provider for an especially accurate time to be available in the cell tower? If not, not sure what could make this happen unless a very large consumer demand arises for atomic-level timekeeping to be distributed from the towers. As you note, atomic-precision timekeeping from a nearby tower would allow GPS to get a good lock with one fewer satellite; I'm just not sure there's enough consumer demand to make the cell companies drop a Symetricon or what-have-you into their towers or even to distribute time from one precisely accounting for transit latency.

    (I used to work for a cell company. That whole industry is tight as two coats of paint. Not just in US, though US is among the worst about it.)
    What I'm thinking is there's high-end timekeeping on a small fraction of the towers, then you just use the very low latency to get time down to a few milliseconds. This isn't atomic-level accuracy by several orders of magnitude. And I'm thinking near-GPS quality location services with NO satellites. Given that phones are used as GPS's already, improving this would seem to be a good selling point. Plus it's very useful for 911 location services. If the latency is low enough, would there be a need for a separate clock..or could this be managed inside the transceivers, by and large?

    I wouldn't be surprised, tho, that more is done with this outside the US. At least for a long time. An advantage other countries have is they're generally more compact. We're soooo spread out. I expect the pressure first and foremost isn't best possible feature set...it's get a competitive-advantage level of features into service to as many people as possible, as fast as possible.
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by watchcrank View Post
    (I used to work for a cell company. That whole industry is tight as two coats of paint. Not just in US, though US is among the worst about it.)
    OT but apropos.

    Tight? You want tight???

    So I needed to get my medical insurance coverage info, as I've had to change optometrists. Not sure where the wallet card is. OK, fine, go online, there it is, the data I need to send to them Monday. No problem.

    But in case I can't find the old wallet card, fine...get a new one mailed. Easy peasy.

    Then they say, "in order to keep our costs down, please order a new wallet card only when you need it."

    You have to be kidding me. But that's business in the US. Pinch every fraction of a penny.

    So the point about avoiding any more hardware on most towers...and fundamentally keeping the costs down to as low as feasible...is more understandable....
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  10. #9
    Member Hans Moleman's Avatar
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Moleman View Post
    The idea of a low network latency is that it allows for real time applications. Drive a car remotely. That sort of thing.

    I could imagine an application that measures the watch's rate remotely.

    We'll have to see what of those 5G promises come to pass.
    Now I get it ...

    With 5G one can set up a factory, for instance, so that the robots can connect locally with a latency less than 1 ms. Great if you want them to make decisions and behave in near real time.

    You're setting up the factory as a 5G site and no data leaves the site.

    Keeping track of a watch remotely via the internet still has the usual internet latency.

  11. #10
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    Re: SOT: 5G references

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Moleman View Post
    Now I get it ...

    With 5G one can set up a factory, for instance, so that the robots can connect locally with a latency less than 1 ms. Great if you want them to make decisions and behave in near real time.

    You're setting up the factory as a 5G site and no data leaves the site.

    Keeping track of a watch remotely via the internet still has the usual internet latency.
    Sure, but why do you need to go back to the internet? I see no advantage. If the cell tower has a clock that it syncs periodically with a high-quality time signal...the use here, if nothing else, is to provide higher-accuracy location for emergency response. You're never leaving the cell provider's local net. Cell ID, rather than GPS.
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