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Thread: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

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  1. #151
    Member HorologicOptic's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenPromaster View Post
    Today I am very excited to present to you (thanks to Gizmodo and google translate) an interview with the man who designed the first Citizen Attesa in 1987, who talks about Citizens journey with titanium and surface treatment.

    https://translate.google.com/transla...900-titan.html

    Spoiler: For the 30th anniversary of Attesa in 2017, they gave an Attesa Duratect MRK (+ DLC) for the first time, it was the CC9065-56L, with caliber F900.
    Currently, as far as I can tell, only one Attesa model gets Duratect MRK (+DLC), the CC4004-58E with caliber F950.

    The article also offers a future perspective on Citizen's titanium, but I will let you read that for yourselves.
    Great find, Promaster. What an interesting insight into the development of Citizen titanium production and their Duratect processes. I am also interested to find out that one of the founding principles of the Attesa line was a focus on bringing the shine of stainless steel to titanium. I was also interested to see an early Attesa featured that includes an "ashtray" type rotating bezel similar to the mid-80's Seiko Tunas.

    Keep up the research! In the meantime, I have been doing some more research of my own on Citizen and their titanium production. Hopefully I can find something of note to post here.
    "...facts, or what a man believes to be facts, are always delightful." - Mark Twain

  2. #152
    Member CitizenPromaster's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    Yes, I lucked into it while searching for additional photo's of the first Citizen Attesa, and google images came up with the below (I think it is being held by Jun Komatsu) and it turned out to be part of an article about Citizen titanium. It is so incredibly perfect for this thread, I can still hardly believe it. Too bad only 5 people on WUS care about this subject lol


    Photo by Hiroki Ohara, I think the second photo to exist of this watch on the internet (after the Citizen history one)
    HorologicOptic and GaryK30 like this.
    Finally have a Duratect MRK watch ^_^

  3. #153
    Member HorologicOptic's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenPromaster View Post
    Yes, I lucked into it while searching for additional photo's of the first Citizen Attesa, and google images came up with the below (I think it is being held by Jun Komatsu) and it turned out to be part of an article about Citizen titanium. It is so incredibly perfect for this thread, I can still hardly believe it. Too bad only 5 people on WUS care about this subject lol

    I too lament how few seem to be interested in what seems to be the bleeding edge of consumer focused titanium production. This stuff, to me, is just too cool to miss out on, but I guess this will be a bit of a hidden gem for anyone looking. Thanks to your efforts and research keeping things fresh and keeping this thread on the front page of the Citizen forum we might see a few new faces in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenPromaster View Post

    Photo by Hiroki Ohara, I think the second photo to exist of this watch on the internet (after the Citizen history one)
    This did blow my mind a little bit. I too have not seen any other image of this model outside of that Citizen official history retrospective (thanks for posting that here, by the way). It speaks to the rarity of the piece that even the designer only has a well-loved example, likely his own. Great piece of history, even if it's relatively obscure to most.

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenPromaster View Post
    Today I am very excited to present to you (thanks to Gizmodo and google translate) an interview with the man who designed the first Citizen Attesa in 1987, who talks about Citizens journey with titanium and surface treatment.


    Jun Komatsu (photo by Hiroki Ohara)

    Click here to read: https://translate.google.com/transla...900-titan.html

    Spoiler: For the 30th anniversary of Attesa in 2017, they gave an Attesa Duratect MRK (+ DLC) for the first time, it was the CC9065-56L, with caliber F900.
    Currently, as far as I can tell, only one Attesa model gets Duratect MRK (+DLC), the CC4004-58E with caliber F950.

    The article also offers a future perspective on Citizen's titanium, but I will let you read that for yourselves.
    Interestingly, upon closer inspection, it looks as if Jun Komatsu is wearing an Eco Drive Ring BU1020-08A. If this is the case that would be a little bit ironic, since when Citizen manufactured a limited run of the Ring in 2012, all pieces were cased in stainless steel.

    Name:  CitizenRing.jpg
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    Photo courtesy of Citizen

    All that said, the Eco Drive Ring is a sight to behold. I'd love to see one in the metal someday.
    Last edited by HorologicOptic; 6 Days Ago at 21:20. Reason: Added model ID
    CitizenPromaster likes this.
    "...facts, or what a man believes to be facts, are always delightful." - Mark Twain

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  5. #154
    Member CitizenPromaster's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    I did notice something big hanging from his wrist, but I couldn't identify it. I think you are right on the money.

    Ironic? Not entirely, because this man is all about the surface treatment and Citizen also applies Duratect to stainless steel, like on the Eco-Drive One (the first one, later they appeared in Super Titanium with Duratect alpha) and also on this Eco-Drive Ring.

    "To maximize the amount of light that hits the solar cell, the watches 44.4mm stainless steel case has hollow lugs, leaving no aspect of the sides in the dark. The case is hand polished to a mirror finish and is coated with Citizen’s proprietary Duratect Coating. This clear plating helps preserve its beautiful finish by making the steel 3 to 4 times harder than its original form."

    I borrowed this quote from this WUS thread: https://forums.watchuseek.com/f21/ci...-a-909266.html
    Last edited by CitizenPromaster; 6 Days Ago at 21:10.
    HorologicOptic likes this.
    Finally have a Duratect MRK watch ^_^

  6. #155
    Member HorologicOptic's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenPromaster View Post
    I did notice something big hanging from his wrist, but I couldn't identify it. I think you are right on the money.

    Ironic? Not entirely, because this man is all about the surface treatment and Citizen also applies Duratect to stainless steel, like on the Eco-Drive One (the first one, later they appeared in Super Titanium with Duratect alpha) and also on this Eco-Drive Ring.

    "To maximize the amount of light that hits the solar cell, the watches 44.4mm stainless steel case has hollow lugs, leaving no aspect of the sides in the dark. The case is hand polished to a mirror finish and is coated with Citizen’s proprietary Duratect Coating. This clear plating helps preserve its beautiful finish by making the steel 3 to 4 times harder than its original form."

    I borrowed this quote from this WUS thread: https://forums.watchuseek.com/f21/ci...-a-909266.html
    Right you are! I was thinking from the titanium angle, but he definitely has his bases covered. I wish there were more interviews with Jun Komatsu available as he seems to have been on the ground floor of many important developments in modern Japanese watchmaking. Most impressive.
    "...facts, or what a man believes to be facts, are always delightful." - Mark Twain

  7. #156
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    By the way, I just checked and the Eco-Drive One is still for sale in stainless steel with Duratect alpha, as well as Super Titanium with Duratect Alpha, and some other fancy materials like cermet, binderless cemented carbide and Altic.
    "Altic is a fine ceramic made of alumina and titanium carbide that marks more than 1,900 HV (Vickers hardness number)."
    "Cermet is an advanced composite composed of ceramic and metallic materials. It is made by combusting a mixture of hard compound particles such as metallic carbides and nitrides with metallic binding materials."
    "Binderless cemented carbide is a type of cemented carbide mainly made of tungsten carbide powder with no metallic binder such as cobalt and nickel. It has superior hardness, corrosion resistance and oxidation resistance."

    I don't know what the deal is with the Altic, because Super Titanium with Duratect alpha has a higher HV, but I have a feeling that doesn't lend itself for very thin applications, like the screw-on bezel of the Eco-Drive One. The One models that have a Super Titanium case have an integrated bezel it seems, not the seperate screw-on bezel like on the other variants. So it's either stainless steel case with cermet bezel, or cermet case with Altic bezel, or Super Titanium case without bezel.

    I don't know how many more interviews are hidden on Japanese website, but I have a feeling this type of interview is very rare indeed.
    Finally have a Duratect MRK watch ^_^

  8. #157
    Member drunken-gmt-master's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenPromaster View Post
    By the way, I just checked and the Eco-Drive One is still for sale in stainless steel with Duratect alpha, as well as Super Titanium with Duratect Alpha, and some other fancy materials like cermet, binderless cemented carbide and Altic.
    "Altic is a fine ceramic made of alumina and titanium carbide that marks more than 1,900 HV (Vickers hardness number)."
    "Cermet is an advanced composite composed of ceramic and metallic materials. It is made by combusting a mixture of hard compound particles such as metallic carbides and nitrides with metallic binding materials."
    "Binderless cemented carbide is a type of cemented carbide mainly made of tungsten carbide powder with no metallic binder such as cobalt and nickel. It has superior hardness, corrosion resistance and oxidation resistance."

    I don't know what the deal is with the Altic, because Super Titanium with Duratect alpha has a higher HV, but I have a feeling that doesn't lend itself for very thin applications, like the screw-on bezel of the Eco-Drive One. The One models that have a Super Titanium case have an integrated bezel it seems, not the seperate screw-on bezel like on the other variants. So it's either stainless steel case with cermet bezel, or cermet case with Altic bezel, or Super Titanium case without bezel.

    I don't know how many more interviews are hidden on Japanese website, but I have a feeling this type of interview is very rare indeed.
    Altic, binderless cemented carbide, & Cermet sound like they're similar to the materials used by Rado (hardmetal, high-tech ceramic, & Ceramos) & IWC (ceratanium).
    ------------------------------------

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  9. #158
    Member martyloveswatches's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    My ex, 80's TIN coated titanium 800m diver...

    Poslano sa mog FRD-L09 koristeći Tapatalk
    marty

  10. #159
    Member CitizenPromaster's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

    This did blow my mind a little bit. I too have not seen any other image of this model outside of that Citizen official history retrospective (thanks for posting that here, by the way). It speaks to the rarity of the piece that even the designer only has a well-loved example, likely his own. Great piece of history, even if it's relatively obscure to most.
    Actually, all the early Attesa's are incredibly rare. On the Japanese auction sites you can find a few early Eco-Drive models (from 1995 onwards), but the ones before that are few and far between. They all seem to be 32 mm, though I don't think they are women's watches. The beauty is in the exquisite finesse.

    Here is one from 1993:
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    Here is another from 1993:
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    Here is one from 1994:
    Name:  citizenattesa1994-1.jpg
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    Another from 1994, the seller said it was a women's watch, but I think that was a misconception:
    Name:  citizenattesa1994w-7.jpg
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    Here is one from 1995, you wouldn't know it is Eco-Drive, until you see the caseback:
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    Name:  citizenattesa1995-2.jpg
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    And another 1995 Eco-Drive:
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    Name:  citizenattesaedl2.jpg
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    The above Eco-Drive casebacks are very detailed, later they were simplified, like this 1999 Attesa that still didn't say Eco-Drive on the dial:
    Name:  citizenattesa1999-1.jpg
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    Name:  citizenattesa1999-3.jpg
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    Other than these, I have only seen three others from before 1995, and those are the only ones I've seen with a round date window at 6.
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    The above is one I found on the web, the below is one that somehow made it to The Netherlands where I bought it! It is from 1994.
    Name:  citizenattesati6date1.jpg
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    I may be biased, but look at that dial! Roman numerals are not my thing, but they are so detailed and glossy, it's a sight to behold.

    So that leaves one more Attesa with the round date window at 6, and I think this one is from 1989, because the caseback is not titanium, and the history says the first full titanium watch was made in 1993, and my 1994 watch is full titanium.
    Name:  citizenattesati204710-4.jpg
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    Look how dark this baby is.
    Name:  citizenattesati204710-6.jpg
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    And the caseback, serial starts with 9, and this is certainly no 1999 watch.
    Name:  citizenattesati204710-8.jpg
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    So there you have it, Attesa's early (titanium) history reconstructed to my best ability. Hope you enjoyed it.
    Last edited by CitizenPromaster; 5 Days Ago at 12:55.
    Finally have a Duratect MRK watch ^_^

  11. #160
    Member yankeexpress's Avatar
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    Re: The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC

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