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  1. #321
    Member Arizone's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by PanKorop View Post
    Hello, Luigi !

    As a very rough sketch, would this sort of design be enough of a reminder ?

    Selbstverstandlich, this assumes one read at least once a more detailed tutorial.

    Attachment 13392793
    This implies the compass hand faces the sun when it should be the 12-hour hour hand facing the sun. The compass hand then bisects the distance between 12 on the dial and the hour hand, and gives the cardinal North and South, after which you can move the bezel to match and adjust it for daylight saving if necessary. Other watch designs may be read differently than ours. Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's such a brain teaser to think about that I'm always second guessing myself.

  2. #322
    Member joecool's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizone View Post
    This implies the compass hand faces the sun when it should be the 12-hour hour hand facing the sun. The compass hand then bisects the distance between 12 on the dial and the hour hand, and gives the cardinal North and South, after which you can move the bezel to match and adjust it for daylight saving if necessary. Other watch designs may be read differently than ours. Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's such a brain teaser to think about that I'm always second guessing myself.
    The best and simplest soloution is to use the 24 h hand as the compass hand.
    Name:  download (1).png
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    NORTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the hand towards the position of the sun, and wherever the '24' marker is pointing, is North.

    SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the '12' marker towards the position of the sun, and wherever the hand is pointing, is North.

    So if the 24 hour hand is made with a small sun icon (meatball) for the northern hemisphere
    Such as something like this
    Name:  download65acea6d_2femulated_2f0_2fDownload_2fUA6JhfejrXtzBngDfAG3YMZgHkdV9S_2_2_2.png
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    Sorry for the dodgy graphic but you get the idea (using my smartphone graphic app :()
    And the 12 marker on the bezel has a similar sun icon for use in the southern hemisphere
    Then all should be able to use the compass feature very easily
    Obviously this method requires the bezel and the watch time are in harmony with the correct time set for your timezone.
    After you have utilised the compass feature the bezel can then be altered to reflect a second timezone should you so wish.
    Last edited by joecool; August 16th, 2018 at 08:51.
    taike, PanKorop and Peterc2018 like this.
    Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. ~Carl Sandburg

  3. #323
    Member Arizone's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by joecool View Post
    The best and simplest soloution is to use the 24 h hand as the compass hand.
    Attachment 13396057
    NORTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the hand towards the position of the sun, and wherever the '24' marker is pointing, is North.

    SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the '12' marker towards the position of the sun, and wherever the hand is pointing, is North.

    So if the 24 hour hand is made with a small sun icon (meatball) for the northern hemisphere
    Such as something like this

    Sorry for the dodgy graphic but you get the idea (using my smartphone graphic app :()
    And the 12 marker on the bezel has a similar sun icon for use in the southern hemisphere
    Then all should be able to use the compass feature very easily
    Obviously this method requires the bezel and the watch time are in harmony with the correct time set for your timezone.
    After you have utilised the compass feature the bezel can then be altered to reflect a second timezone should you so wish.
    But if the compass hand is pointing at the sun then it's not pointing North and South (unless it's at solar noon) which is the point, visually, of that hand. That's not so simple. This is why I took the proposal for the 12-hour hour hand having the sun design instead.

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  5. #324
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizone View Post
    This implies the compass hand faces the sun when it should be the 12-hour hour hand facing the sun. The compass hand then bisects the distance between 12 on the dial and the hour hand, and gives the cardinal North and South, after which you can move the bezel to match and adjust it for daylight saving if necessary. Other watch designs may be read differently than ours. Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's such a brain teaser to think about that I'm always second guessing myself.
    Name:  raf,360x360,075,t,fafafa:ca443f4786.jpg
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    How shall I begin?
    Yeah, with all due respect and gratefulness, I’ll beg to correct you.

    I stupidly assumed that most people involved in this project knew already how to use a 24h watch as a solar compass. Maybe because, as an addicted user and modder of compass watches, this Elbrus struck me as brilliant. And why no-one ever thought of it before? To the point of me getting out the closet after 10 years lurking around WUS!

    Ok. Do you realize your Elbrus project just rocks? Not only because it looks purty. Because it simplifies it all! Because it is NOT an Alpinist — which as an orientation watch gets it all wrong and confused. Reason why I didn’t buy one, dismissing it as a kawaii novelty. The worst being Seiko’s tutorial on it. Yeah, even worse than its poison toad colour, come to think of it...

    With a 24h hand (or “compass” needle as we shall hopefully get) forget the whole bisecting, etc. Check any “false GMT” i.e. watch with a 4th pointer permanently linked to the hour hand. Take any Vostok “GMT” for instance; pull out the crown, and turn it manually. So what does this redundant hand do? It travels around the dial two times slower than the hour hand, right? And where does it put it? Precisely bisecting between the hour hand and 12 o’clock! So forget the complications: it did the whole geometry/math for you. Мат и перемат, if you’ll allow me

    So, shortcut on the whole tutorial (which now I do know I have to write to help bring this project to life). I’ll use the simplest configuration for starters. It presumes your local time reflects pretty well solar time. Works ok in most areas, with an error margin of ca. 15º in summer (DST), less or none in winter.

    Note: pressed by your post, I write here quick and dirty. I hereby pledge that I’ll write a cleaned up, streamlined, shorter (!) version before next week.

    1) set your watch so the red tip of the “compass needle” is at 12 (top) when the hour hand is also at 12. The blue half of the needle should point to 6.
    2) set the local time, as you would with any watch. Behold and wonder! the red compass tip bisects in-between 12 and the hour hand. Now forget that
    3) turn the bezel so the Ю (South symbol) is over the 12 on the dial. Don’t touch it now — it’s set, and should stay so!
    4) Turn the whole watch so the red hand points towards the sun. Voilà, is all! The cardinal directions lay before you, already.

    Didn’t work? Check out this step-by-step debugging.
    a) forget the whole bisecting thing: it muddies the issue. The Seiko Alpinist (except for the quartz one with GMT) is nothing but a cool watch with a useless pretty bezel!
    b) wait for daytime. Solar watches are like solar panels — useless at night.
    c) get down from you beautiful, but misty, WA state mountains (you submitted proofs!). Same issue as (b).

    (Part 2: advanced mode! Please fasten your seatbelts.)
    You want to compensate for Daylight Saving Time, and while you’re at it, for true solar time?
    Get on the net, check True Solar Noon for your precise location. Here where I live, true solar noon today is nothing less than 14:15. If I neglected it, my compass watch readings would be some whopping 35º off!
    As I am not so neglectful, I turned my bezel clockwise, so the Ю mark is at 14:15 — this on a 24h scale! No such on your main dial? Big deal, just set your Ю over the 1 o’clock standard scale, plus one minute/second tick (right: back to that bisexual geometry thingie). If you do have a 24h scale on the bezel (up to votes on the Elbrus, so far), you may bring its 9:45 mark (=12:00 minus 2 1/4 hours) above 12 on main dial.

    (Part 3: masterclass!)
    Where we’ll learn how to compensate for a more vicious bummer: the sunrise, sunset variations between summer and winter. I leave it as a cliffhanger for now... [to be confused, err, continued]

    PS: for the Aussies and Kiwis and all fine folks down under who I know follow us. You guys being no underdawgs, you of course understood that you have to substitute “C” (North) for “Ю” (... South, you got it!) in all the yack above.

    PPS: note for our Inuit, Saami, and Chukchi friends, and all the others up higher than the arctic circle: the Elbrus watch may malfunction in winter. Same for our Emperor penguins friends at the other end.
    Dub Rubb, Chascomm and joecool like this.

  6. #325
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by joecool View Post
    The best and simplest soloution is to use the 24 h hand as the compass hand.
    Attachment 13396057
    NORTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the hand towards the position of the sun, and wherever the '24' marker is pointing, is North.

    SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the '12' marker towards the position of the sun, and wherever the hand is pointing, is North.
    1) right with using the 24 h hand, and forgetting the usual hour, minute hands.

    2) Down under same as up here. Remember we have a revolving bezel, which will probably house both the cardinal directions, and 24h scale?
    So whatever hemisphere, point the 24h hand/compass-needle towards the sun. In the southern hemisphere, just flip the bezel 180º so you have South (Ю) on top.
    NB: Of course I here assume that you’re using the watch as a compass. For the “GMT” feature, just fiddle with the bezel as wished. Or use your brain: how many UTC offsets do we practically use? Hometown when travelling. One, maybe two correspondents when at home...

    3) That pip on the compass hand could be ok for pedagogy. Now design-wise, I fear it ads a baroque (rococo) detail to an otherwise clean, streamlined dial.

  7. #326
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizone View Post
    But if the compass hand is pointing at the sun then it's not pointing North and South (unless it's at solar noon) which is the point, visually, of that hand. That's not so simple. This is why I took the proposal for the 12-hour hour hand having the sun design instead.
    Agreed.
    Now, as a daily user of a compass watch, it appeared to me as obvious that the “compass” hand was just a cool design and was to be used as a sun pointer. Otherwise, what? You point the Ю or C of the bezel towards the sun, and then the compass hand shows N/S, then you adjust the bezel so it’s not confusing?

    Probably, the most efficient, least confusing option is joecool’s suggestion: forget the compass shaped, double tipped 24h hand, make it a simple, nice sun pointer. With a Sun pip.

    PS: forget the 12h hand. It’s here to tell you your local time, period. For compass purpose, it’s totally inferior, though redundant, to the 24h hand. Else you end up with all the malfunctionality (TM) of the Alpinist, the least compass-able watch around.

    Name:  56E4ECC9-3DA7-477A-87D0-DD2DD0049ADF.jpeg
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    It is certainly much more obvious, less confusing so. I’ll regret the beautiful, really unique “compass” hand, though: my original sketch, with this double-tipped hand, tried precisely to lift the confusion for the user, as it insisted you pointed the hand towards the sun, while the dial/bezel reads the cardinal points.
    Btw, I notice that on most my “compass” watches, the bezel just gives the bearings, and forget about a “GMT” scale.
    Last edited by PanKorop; August 16th, 2018 at 05:12. Reason: added sketch

  8. #327
    Member Arizone's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by PanKorop View Post
    With a 24h hand (or “compass” needle as we shall hopefully get) forget the whole bisecting, etc. Check any “false GMT” i.e. watch with a 4th pointer permanently linked to the hour hand. Take any Vostok “GMT” for instance; pull out the crown, and turn it manually. So what does this redundant hand do? It travels around the dial two times slower than the hour hand, right? And where does it put it? Precisely bisecting between the hour hand and 12 o’clock! So forget the complications: it did the whole geometry/math for you. Мат и перемат, if you’ll allow me
    Exactly, this is the beauty of the 24 hour complication.

    1) set your watch so the red tip of the “compass needle” is at 12 (top) when the hour hand is also at 12. The blue half of the needle should point to 6.
    2) set the local time, as you would with any watch. Behold and wonder! the red compass tip bisects in-between 12 and the hour hand. Now forget that
    3) turn the bezel so the Ю (South symbol) is over the 12 on the dial. Don’t touch it now — it’s set, and should stay so!
    4) Turn the whole watch so the red hand points towards the sun. Voilà, is all! The cardinal directions lay before you, already.
    Following these instructions, at noon the red compass needle would be around 6 o'clock on the dial, adjacent to the North marking on the bezel. If I then pointed the red compass needle at the Sun (from the Northern Hemisphere, presumably), the North marking on the bezel would be facing South. Oops!

    At any time other than noon the Sun is not due South (or North), so again the concept of pointing the North or South indicating compass needle at it to me is counter-intuitive. With pointing the 12 hour hand at the Sun, the 24 hour hand circumvents having to bisect the dial by eye, such as on the ordinary Alpinist as you mention, but will then point North or South itself. When we then rotate the bezel markings to align with the 24 hour compass hand, we can then apply final adjustments to account for solar noon. For the South Hemisphere, the same advice applies where you instead face 12 o'clock on the dial at the Sun, however you must offset the 24 hour hand by 12 hours (which is why there is no date complication), so that the blue compass needle faces 12 o'clock at midnight.

    I concede both these options will yield the same result, but I prefer my approach with the complementary watch design and because the same approach is shared with ordinary 12 hour watches if you are a WIS like me and don't want to remember two methods. Short of any design details that might interfere with one approach or the other, I don't think there are any yet, people are ultimately free to do as they please.

  9. #328
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizone View Post
    Exactly, this is the beauty of the 24 hour complication.


    Following these instructions, at noon the red compass needle would be around 6 o'clock on the dial, adjacent to the North marking on the bezel. If I then pointed the red compass needle at the Sun (from the Northern Hemisphere, presumably), the North marking on the bezel would be facing South. Oops!
    The “instructions” were (please excuse I quote myself):
    1) set your watch so the red tip of the “compass needle” is at 12 (top) when the hour hand is also at 12. The blue half of the needle should point to 6.
    2) set the local time, as you would with any watch. Behold and wonder! the red compass tip bisects in-between 12 and the hour hand. Now forget that
    3) turn the bezel so the Ю (South symbol) is over the 12 on the dial. Don’t touch it now — it’s set, and should stay so!


    So it seems you missed my 3rd point: align the Ю on the bezel with 12 o’clock on the dial. I.e. the top of the dial. Then of course point the red tip of the needle towards the sun.
    ergo => no oops!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizone View Post
    At any time other than noon the Sun is not due South (or North), so again the concept of pointing the North or South indicating compass needle at it to me is counter-intuitive. With pointing the 12 hour hand at the Sun, the 24 hour hand circumvents having to bisect the dial by eye, such as on the ordinary Alpinist as you mention, but will then point North or South itself. When we then rotate the bezel markings to align with the 24 hour compass hand, we can then apply final adjustments to account for solar noon. For the South Hemisphere, the same advice applies where you instead face 12 o'clock on the dial at the Sun, however you must offset the 24 hour hand by 12 hours (which is why there is no date complication), so that the blue compass needle faces 12 o'clock at midnight.

    I concede both these options will yield the same result, but I prefer my approach with the complementary watch design and because the same approach is shared with ordinary 12 hour watches if you are a WIS like me and don't want to remember two methods. Short of any design details that might interfere with one approach or the other, I don't think there are any yet, people are ultimately free to do as they please.
    Your method of course works, and it may be the one most usually taught.
    What I dislike is you’re supposed to realign the bezel (NSEW) scale at each reading. With mine, you set the bezel once and for all, mostly to compensate for true solar time, and you leave it there throughout the season.

    I like you idea to keep the same approach with a standard watch. So I do too. Except, mine in this case remains the same as when I point the 24h hand at the sun. I interpolate (bisect) an imaginary line in-between the hour hand and 12 (with a diver’s bezel, I set its O or pip on that line). I point that line (pip) at the sun. Thus, South is at 12, North at the opposite, just as with my GMT hand method.

    Note: it may be a typically French, or rather French speakers’ (Quebec, Swiss, Belgium...) bias. To us 12 o’clock, or noon, is called “midi”. But we also call the South “le Midi” (which is quite logical when you think of it), so having the 12 indice (midi) pointing to the South (le Midi) seems only obvious.
    This probably explains also why I like 24h watches with the 12 on top, just as I set my bezels on GMT watches (when there’s no date window to mess things up).

    As a final plead for my method: I could easily sketch it as a reminder for a watch back, with enough free space for an Elbrus silhouette and a watch numbering. Not so easy with yours, which implies drawing two hands, and indicating you got to revolve the bezel each time.
    Last edited by PanKorop; August 16th, 2018 at 06:28.

  10. #329
    Member Arizone's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by PanKorop View Post
    The “instructions” were (please excuse I quote myself):
    1) set your watch so the red tip of the “compass needle” is at 12 (top) when the hour hand is also at 12. The blue half of the needle should point to 6.
    2) set the local time, as you would with any watch. Behold and wonder! the red compass tip bisects in-between 12 and the hour hand. Now forget that
    3) turn the bezel so the Ю (South symbol) is over the 12 on the dial. Don’t touch it now — it’s set, and should stay so!


    So it seems you missed my 3rd point: align the Ю on the bezel with 12 o’clock on the dial. I.e. the top of the dial. Then of course point the red tip of the needle towards the sun.
    ergo => no oops!
    I'm still struggling here.


  11. #330
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by Danilao View Post
    Well done, François, now I understand how you, nephews of Napoleon, have won on that rotten swamp of the Camargue turning it into a tourist attraction.

    This is the concept that I meant (with some adjustments).
    I'm very satisfied but if your design will not like the comrades of WUS (the usual troublemakers or Masons of the amphibious Poljot) do not worry, we can still use it to produce a variety of mountain camembert for which the design seems perfect.

    Finally: let me say, with esteem, that you have a future in the world of design or, alternatively, in that of cheese production
    Would you please share the adjustments you’d see useful? Please do.

    At worst, we shall implement it in the cheese box. Just not camembert, for me who’d give away the whole of Normandy for one really good reggiano.
    As for Camargue, don’t say it’s a tourist trap. We preserved its wild fauna, mainly mosquitoes, thanks to a GMO breed devoid of malaria. We also grow there the worst imaginable rice, esp. considering we don’t cook risotto.
    As for Napoleone
    ”il piccolo” (cf. Victor Hugo), same as “Benedetto” M. and the Latium marshes. How come most real or would-be dictators have that urge to “drain the swamp”?
    Excuse the small print: it’s to fly under the radar of the censor when off-topic. My Soviet heritage.

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