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  1. #331
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizone View Post
    I'm still struggling here.

    3) that’s right, just as I would set the 24h hand and the bezel: 12 (Ю) up in the Northern hemisphere.

    Now it is 12pm. You’re attempting to read a solar compass at that time, but hey why not if in the Arctic circle?

    Ok: the 24h hand points to 24. As it is our Sun hand, it points to the North. Perfectly correct: that’s were the Sun hides at midnight!

    Btw: here’s a screen dump from that wonderful app Sun Seeker. The yellow hairlines shows the sun trajectory for my location, including the night path. Note here the sun zenith (=S) occurs at 14:15.
    You can also show the path for both solstices, get your true solar noon, elevations, etc. It also uses your device camera for augmented reality display.
    As its companion Moon Seeker, it’s produced by a cool Aussie team, ozPDA

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    and here’s Chicago

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    Last edited by PanKorop; August 16th, 2018 at 08:19.
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  2. #332
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Cool Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Louis Jeansol’s “Soltime” patented watch.

    To me the best solar watch/compass ever designed.
    Small (40), flat, lugless...
    Now quartz (Ronda), little water protection, and a flat mineral glass: more city than field...

    12h00 up.
    The NSEW outer bezel is fixed.
    It’s the whole 24h scale which revolves to adjust for true solar time.
    At night, the “sun” hides behind the partly frosted glass.
    Lines show the winter and summer solstices sunrise/set for 40ishº latitudes.

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  3. #333
    Member Arizone's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by PanKorop View Post
    3) that’s right, just as I would set the 24h hand and the bezel: 12 (Ю) up in the Northern hemisphere.
    This is about the Northern Hemisphere, so when you put Ю up, and point the hand at the Sun down(South), you have put the bezel at the opposite of what it should be.
    This is assuming the 24 bezel is in a standard configuration with 24 and North at the top, and 12 and South at the bottom, just as I have illustrated thus far.

    Ok: the 24h hand points to 24. As it is our Sun hand, it points to the North. Perfectly correct: that’s were the Sun hides at midnight!
    Midnight? I'm talking about noon, where the sun is visible. The 24 hour hand points to 12 located at 6 o'clock.
    Last edited by Arizone; August 16th, 2018 at 09:15.

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  5. #334
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum proj

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizone View Post
    This is about the Northern Hemisphere, so when you put Ю up, and point the hand at the Sun down(South), you have put the bezel at the opposite of what it should be.
    This is assuming the 24 bezel is in a standard configuration with 24 and North at the top, and 12 and South at the bottom, just as I have illustrated thus far.



    Midnight? I'm talking about noon, where the sun is visible. The 24 hour hand points to 12 located at 6 o'clock.
    Ok. Here, quick an dirty. My Orient because it has a close enough bezel to what we might adopt.
    Forget the date: I deliberately set it 12 hours off; wish I could hide the date window...

    Left: Top noon; bottom midnight.
    Right: Top 9:15 am; bottom 3:15 pm.

    Point the red hand at the sun, in any of these configurations: the headings are correct. The 24h hand shows also correct time. So what dou you see wrong ?

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    I’m at loss to explain it better; now your questions certainly do help me to try and be clearer.

    Like, I forgot most people learnt the sun watch trick as you did: with a regular watch, bisecting between hour and 12, etc. This clumsy procedure is what got me into “false GMT” then 24h watches in the first place. Then forgetting the complicated manuals, and devising a quick an easy method. My son never managed with a standard dial. I offered him a 24h Vostok 420SE and now he too routinely uses it for orientation. Beside, he loves it: makes one just as popular as card tricks with his gang

  6. #335
    Member Arizone's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum proj

    Quote Originally Posted by PanKorop View Post
    Ok. Here, quick an dirty. My Orient because it has a close enough bezel to what we might adopt.
    Forget the date: I deliberately set it 12 hours off; wish I could hide the date window...

    Left: Top noon; bottom midnight.
    Right: Top 9:15 am; bottom 3:15 pm.

    Point the red hand at the sun, in any of these configurations: the headings are correct. The 24h hand shows also correct time. So what dou you see wrong ?

    I’m at loss to explain it better; now your questions certainly do help me to try and be clearer.

    Like, I forgot most people learnt the sun watch trick as you did: with a regular watch, bisecting between hour and 12, etc. This clumsy procedure is what got me into “false GMT” then 24h watches in the first place. Then forgetting the complicated manuals, and devising a quick an easy method. My son never managed with a standard dial. I offered him a 24h Vostok 420SE and now he too routinely uses it for orientation. Beside, he loves it: makes one just as popular as card tricks with his gang
    Yes, I have already realized the confusion you were causing. You're running midnight as at the bottom, when traditionally it's at the top, as you have noticed with the date complication not supporting such a possibility. While with a 24 hour only watch I could support such a reversed configuration so that daytime is upward, just as we briefly touched upon with the Neptune concepts, when you have a normal 12 hour system and then a reversed 24 hour system which then flips the cardinal directions upside down to support it, it's just...weird. While again you are welcome to do as you please I would not support documenting any such confusion and instead stick to what most would expect, not just how to read a solar compass, but how to set the 24 hour hand in the first place with midnight located at the top of the dial and thus do NOT reverse the bezel to put South upward.

  7. #336
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    I think it’s up to the individual to use whichever method suits, I’ve only used the 12hr hand version.

    I like PanKorop’s method and think it’s usable in standard configuration, i.e - midnight/North at the top.
    If you stand with your back to the sun and use a shadow to align the compass hand, the midnight/North marker will point North (I think?).

    My brain hurts, I’m going for a lie down!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #337
    Member joecool's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Simple is always better, therefore I still believe utilising the 24 hour hand/rotating bezel only for the compass feature and forgetting all about using the 12 hour hand/bisecting angle aproach
    Some pics using the Elbrus bezel to illustrate

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    NORTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the hand towards the position of the sun, and wherever the '24' marker is pointing, is North.

    SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the '12' marker towards the position of the sun, and wherever the hand is pointing, is North.

    The only thing that has to be done now in the southern hemisphere to get all the cardinal directions lined up is while keeping the watch stationary in the same orientation is to utilise the rotating bezel to line up the 24h/North marker with the tip of the 24h hand thus

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    Easy peasy lemon squeesy!
    Also pretty easy to illustrate the use of on the caseback....
    Maybe!
    armanh, Dtn8, Palpatine and 4 others like this.
    Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. ~Carl Sandburg

  9. #338
    Member PanKorop's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by joecool View Post
    Simple is always better, therefore I still believe utilising the 24 hour hand/rotating bezel only for the compass feature and forgetting all about using the 12 hour hand/bisecting angle aproach
    Some pics using the Elbrus bezel to illustrate

    Name:  download (1)_3.jpg
Views: 76
Size:  57.0 KB
    NORTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the hand towards the position of the sun, and wherever the '24' marker is pointing, is North.

    SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE: Simply point the '12' marker towards the position of the sun, and wherever the hand is pointing, is North.

    (...)

    Easy peasy lemon squeesy!
    Also pretty easy to illustrate the use of on the caseback....
    Maybe!

    I perfectly agree with your KISS method for Northern hemisphere.
    (When readying an objection, always begin with Step 1: “I agree”)

    But (phase 2)
    Wee bit complicated for our deep South friends. Like I don’t mean they’re thick, no! Just another method, say a symmetrical one, may be more straightforward.

    Suppose we keep the original double-sided red-blue hand — which I really favor for its striking originality.
    Same setting of the watch (local time, 24h, and bezel!).
    Just point the other end of the red-blue hand towards the sun!
    Btw, you austral folks are lucky, you won’t have to watch your shadow, nor remove the watch from your wrist...

    Doubly easy, Cheshire cheesy!

    And yes, pretty easy to illustrate the cheesebox, with room to spare for f.i. the serial number.

    Name:  D08FC1F5-5667-4035-B7A6-E1945A37A541.jpeg
Views: 67
Size:  105.2 KB
    This eco-friendly cheap drawing was made from 100% recycled and recyclable left-overs.

    PS: (Phase 3: always deliver the Parthian arrow, or mule's kick, when the opponent thought you quit. Don’t miss the combo.)
    just a detail, but I believe your yellow pip of sun on the revolving bezel will be confusing: some will try to align it with the sun. Then they get lost in the desert, and they hold you liable... If there’s really need be a sun, then only on the 24h hand.
    joecool and Danilao like this.

  10. #339
    Member joecool's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by PanKorop View Post
    I perfectly agree with your KISS method for Northern hemisphere.
    (When readying an objection, always begin with Step 1: “I agree”)

    But (phase 2)
    Wee bit complicated for our deep South friends. Like I don’t mean they’re thick, no! Just another method, say a symmetrical one, may be more straightforward.

    Suppose we keep the original double-sided red-blue hand — which I really favor for its striking originality.
    Same setting of the watch (local time, 24h, and bezel!).
    Just point the other end of the red-blue hand towards the sun!
    Btw, you austral folks are lucky, you won’t have to watch your shadow, nor remove the watch from your wrist...

    Doubly easy, Cheshire cheesy!

    And yes, pretty easy to illustrate the cheesebox, with room to spare for f.i. the serial number.

    Name:  D08FC1F5-5667-4035-B7A6-E1945A37A541.jpeg
Views: 67
Size:  105.2 KB
    This eco-friendly cheap drawing was made from 100% recycled and recyclable left-overs.

    PS: (Phase 3: always deliver the Parthian arrow, or mule's kick, when the opponent thought you quit. Don’t miss the combo.)
    just a detail, but I believe your yellow pip of sun on the revolving bezel will be confusing: some will try to align it with the sun. Then they get lost in the desert, and they hold you liable... If there’s really need be a sun, then only on the 24h hand.
    Totally agree and concur with the method you describe for our antipodean friends
    The graphic I provided above with the little sun on the hand and bezel were just to illustrate the simplicity with which a 24h/bezel combo works compared with the faffing about with the 12h hand method most are familliar with.
    Yes the Elbrus is certainly no Alpinist (spit) homage,clone or wannabe
    I agree the double ended arrow 24h hand is more preferable, but I'm not too keen on how it is depicted on the Elbrus dial at the moment...some more design input required

    PS: If anyone gets lost in the desert relying on the Elbrus for directions,my guess is it would be
    rather their next of kin holding me responsible.....and to that accusation,I say they got their "just desserts" for not being more diligent in their preparation for such a foolhardy venture
    PanKorop likes this.
    Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. ~Carl Sandburg

  11. #340
    Member relativetime's Avatar
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    Re: General Discussion Thread for the 2018 Russian forum project

    Quote Originally Posted by PanKorop View Post
    I perfectly agree with your KISS method for Northern hemisphere.
    (When readying an objection, always begin with Step 1: “I agree”)

    But (phase 2)
    Wee bit complicated for our deep South friends. Like I don’t mean they’re thick, no! Just another method, say a symmetrical one, may be more straightforward.

    Suppose we keep the original double-sided red-blue hand — which I really favor for its striking originality.
    Same setting of the watch (local time, 24h, and bezel!).
    Just point the other end of the red-blue hand towards the sun!
    Btw, you austral folks are lucky, you won’t have to watch your shadow, nor remove the watch from your wrist...

    Doubly easy, Cheshire cheesy!

    And yes, pretty easy to illustrate the cheesebox, with room to spare for f.i. the serial number.

    Name:  D08FC1F5-5667-4035-B7A6-E1945A37A541.jpeg
Views: 67
Size:  105.2 KB
    This eco-friendly cheap drawing was made from 100% recycled and recyclable left-overs.

    PS: (Phase 3: always deliver the Parthian arrow, or mule's kick, when the opponent thought you quit. Don’t miss the combo.)
    just a detail, but I believe your yellow pip of sun on the revolving bezel will be confusing: some will try to align it with the sun. Then they get lost in the desert, and they hold you liable... If there’s really need be a sun, then only on the 24h hand.
    I'm definetly not an expert in using a watch as a compass, or solar compass. But does simply swapping north for south, or using the other end work in the Southern hemisphere?

    Main reason I ask, because doesn't the sun in the Southern Hemisphere follow a Coutner (anti) - clockwise rotation. Rises in the East, noon is north, and sets in the the west. I think (again not an expert) the main reason a 24 hour hand works in the northern hemisphere is because it follows the same direction and basic pathing as the sun.

    I'm just thinking that in the southern hemisphere at 6am (sunrise) the sun is in the east, so either end of the 24 hr hand would work. But at 9am the sun is in the North East, while the 24 hour hands are pointing at South east and North West.
    Like I said, I'm no expert, so maybe I'm missing something.
    Last edited by relativetime; August 17th, 2018 at 19:44.
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